[Ru]

You mean the beach to the left.  Looking out to sea, isnt the beach to the right the beach with ache ball?

Yes, that's what he means.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'm glad everyone knows what I mean. I do have a bit of trouble with left and right. It's a problem when handing out beta.

[grimer]

Did you hear about the farmer who came into the farmhouse one morning. His wife looked at his feet and said "What's that on your wellington boots?"

"What's what?" he replied.

"What's that there?"

He looked down to see 'L' and 'R' written on his wellingtons.

"Oh that," he said. "That's so when I get up in the morning, I'll know which way round my boots go."

"Oh is that right," said the wife. "I wonder if that's what the C & A stand for on my knickers."

[fatneck]

   

[Dave Westlake]

To be honest, regarding unclesomebodys comment - ' if ive done it it cant be 8a' ,  i can probably say the same about myself!

Stu is right that carnage is a great problem, but it has a less great landing, so definately take a few pads/spotters.  7a+ i thought (so it'l be down to 6c+ soon when mr. P. finds it... only kidding   )

Anyway, the big question is: When is the infamous sport route at menachurch - 'die umkerung der fuge' (sp?)  - going to get some attention???  Ive heard that has a (devon) 8a crux.  :shock:   any takers.  Ive not seen it but it sounds good.

cheers, dave

[fashionguru]

Hi James,

Dont take this the wrong way as it is more of a complement rather than to piss you off.

I think your wrong with the grade of Ache Ball. I have done the problem twice now and have been there when other people (climbing well at the time) have repeated it as well.

The reason this has had so many ascents even with it being in Devon is that its the areas cinderella problem (and the hardest in the area).

I think you are right about one thing it is a soft touch for 8a. But so be it it is easy 8a and has been confirmed that way by so many good climbers.
Myself 3 years ago Stu Littlefair etc.

I believe that you are now a lot stronger than you were when you first did it and by far a much more rounded climber, so finding it easy when you are for sure climbing well is no reason to say down grade it. Just take a look at the  other problems in the area Red Quinne has been established longer and has been repeated and has a grade of 7c/7c+ and Ache Ball is harder than this. You have other examples as well.

As for uncle to say if he can climb it, it cant be 8a as he cant climb 8a well this is a load of old crap. There are 8a's for most people to climb out there if you are climbing at a high level (7c/7c+) which he obviously does. Its just a matter of finding the right one that suits you.

I think you should look at some of your own stuff and think about the grades you have given them as myself and 2 other very noteable (even world class) climbers have been trying to repeat your eatswood problem(sorry dont know the name) but man only 8a its just way harder than anything else at this grade I have done recently. I would be as bold to say the crack allone from standing was 8a maybe 8a+.

Hope you (James) can reflect on what I have said and not takle it to heart as I think you are now a very good allround climber.

[a dense loner]

to be fair to james when he first did ache ball 3 years or so ago he did say it wasn't 8a, more like 7c

[unclesomebody]

fashion guru; I don't know who you are, but you must be fairly local to have been trying the eatswood problems etc. I have climbed a fair bit with James, and been with him when he's done a majority of these new things. As much as he'd like to put your dick in his ass, I don't think he will. In my opinion, James has a pretty tight grasp of grades. I don't want to speak too much for him, but he has climbed all over the world, and so knows a little about grading consistency and inconsistency.

I don't know if you have repeated many of the old school problems, that were done back in the day and given 8A or 8A+, but I have tried, and they are fucking nails. It seems to me that grades are getting softer. If you try the old school 8A problems in font, they are very hard indeed. The new school ones like Fata Morgana seem to get repeated by every man and his dog. I don't think this can be attributed to different styles either.  Ache Ball is not exactly my style, it's just that it's not so hard. I was in font a month or so ago, and if I compare it to what I did there then I think it is 7C. We're heading back for a month on saturday, so if I come back with 10 8A's then maybe I'll reconsider my point!

In my opinion, James' grades are consistent. It's not about willy waving, in either direction. It's not about doing big numbers, or downgrading everywhere you go in order to look strong. It's just about maintaining consistency with the problems that came before. I'm sure that ache ball is 8A when you compare it to some of the other problems down there. But try comparing it to the stuff Ben and Jerry did back in the day. You'll quickly realise it's not 8A. When you say ache ball is 8A it almost bring down what the old school guys were doing back in the day. Stuff like The Ace which are 8B are not just one grade harder than ache ball, they are in a different league. The Joker is miles harder than ache ball.

I hope you understand my point.

[dobbin]

Totally understand and support your view - except for the bits about putting dicks in asses. Thanks.

[Stu Littlefair]

I'm going to be all controversial and disagree. I'm not so certain that the stuff that Ben and Jerry was doing in the old days are so much harder than a lot of problems now. Sure, there are soft touches going around, and Ache Ball is one of those. On average though, I don't really find that the old problems are that much harder than the new ones, especially in Font.

Let's take, as an example, Sale Gosse and La Berezina. Both 7c and have been for ages. Reasonably representative at the grade. Neither of these problems represent much of a problem for the modern wad about town, and in fact would not be out of place near the end of a warm-up circuit. Certainly, I found both much easier than, for example, Ache Ball. In fact, I can't think of a 7c I found as hard anywhere (oh yes - danny's problem), which suggests to me that James is undergrading a bit. I'd agree that 8a is probably wrong for Ache Ball (although it felt about right for me), and that Devon grades are soft in general but I think you boys are getting carried away a bit, and I definitely don't agree that old-skool problems are harder across the board.

Out of interest, which old-skool 8a's were you thinking of in Font?

Also, you have to bear in mind that many of these problems have changed a lot. Superman has changed entirely over the years: Jerry used different footholds, the holds got more polished and now the holds ave changed completely, but the grade hasn't changed at all. In my opinion it's more reasonable to suggest that the likes of Superman represent sandbags than to realistically believe that Ache Ball is 7c.

I wonder if James isn't using benchmark 8a's at the School to compare for grades, in which case he's going to be miles out. I've certainly never had to pull as hard outside as I have indoors, often on problems as easy as 7b.

[Jim]

a few people are saying 7c a few are saying 8a. Isn't this what the 7c+ grade is used for?    
Agreed James defo said acheball wasn't 8a when he first did it.

[fashionguru]

Sorry guys I want to keep myself to myself and thats why I am not giving any names away but James knows me well and so do you uncle.

I too as you mentioned have climbed all over the world and have a very good understanding of the grades. You mentioned about climbing Old school problems. Most of the stuff I did back in the 90's with no bouldering pads is that not old school (i know one of my problems climbed 94 i think grade english 7a has never seen a repeat but went in a bouldering guide at english 6c V9)

Things do get easier for people as training methods progress (something which I think we all have look at very carefully with the advent of the places like the school) and as Stu pointed out as problems change and get harder (he used superman as a very good example) the grade does not.
Just because one person finds a problem so easy he can do it every go 1st go does not mean it has to be an easy grade.

I was discussing grades with Mr Moon the other day and we all have our own points of veiw. But when it has been climbed by so many and most agree soft touch 8a then thats what it should be.

Again not wanting to upset anyone (sorry to the guide book writers) but look what has happened to virually all the 8as in the peak. In the new guide nearly everything has come down at least one grade and that includes the old school stuff.

Font has always been a hard place to climb (if that is to due with grades or us brits not using poof in te right way I dont know) but I think that from the time I have spent in Europe and the states etc Ache Ball is soft touch 8a I may conceed hard 7c+ but then look at other problems (someone used the terrace 7c (not 7b as some one says) and Ache Ball is by far harder.

James your problem River of Life 8a+ is not that much different in grade but maybe a little more powerfull and a much better line.(well for me anyway)

As for the sexual pleasures that james may have I dont think that is one he want to have and neither would I. I personnaly dont think you should have put that as it is quite derogatary.

p.s my spelling is shit and yes I am dyslexic so dont have ago. please.

[ferret]

fashionguru im fairly sure who u r but i will continue in yor clandestine mode of communication. the crack alone 8a or 8a+? cant comment myself but with a 7c+ to get to it wudnt that make it one of the hardest problems in the peak? common fairly certain you and some of the other world class climbers tryin it r not especially amazing crack climbers, things that r 5.12 in yosemite r desperate if yor not good at that style. also a good friend of both of ours commented that acheball was in his opinion no way 8a, ask him.
hav to agree on 2 points; sum problems r gonna get harder tho mainly rock that gets easily pollishd or breaks, and sum problems in the peak seem to hav been downgraded contary to popular opinion but remember grades r entirely subjective!

[Percy B]

Lets also remember that grades are totally subjective. A problem graded 8a by 10 people might be found easy to a couple of other folks whose style it suits and who think it might only be 7c. This does not mean the problem is not 8a in difficulty for the majority of those who try it. If you find an 8a problem that you find easy, but has been repeated many times and had its grade confirmed, I would suggest that you pat yourselves on the back, and take the grade. Don't go on a public forum and spew about how easy it is and how it should be downgraded. Its not very cool.
Problems should be up or down graded according to the consensus of all those who've done the problem - not by a few mutants who have found it easy. Fundamentally, I have a big bee in my bonnet about grades 'cos everybody is so hung up on them. They are supposed to give you a guide as to how hard a problem is. I personally no longer give a fuck how hard the grade of any problem is, but prefer just to enjoy the climbing. I use grades to locate problems at the limit of what I can do, but after that its all irrelevant. If a problem is easy for the grade - well fantastic - I must be awesome. If I find a problem desperate for the grade, well, thats bouldering for you - some you win, and some you loose!

Maybe as a jaded routesetter, who is required by his employer to constantly grade routes and boulder problems for his work (I grade at least 80 routes or boulder problems a month - all consistantly in-accurately!), I am more jaded than most regarding grades. This may be evident in the nu-skool post-ironic sandbag grading scales I now employ at The Edge, although people have now stopped complaining and take the grades in the spirit in which they are offered - i.e: as a guide, not a benchmark. I still hate having to put my concept of a difficulty rating to anything though, as its such a subjective thing. Some moves I find easy, the majority of my customers don't, and vica versa.

Grades will never all match up from area to area in the world, and I think this is a nice thing. Why do many climbers feel the need to chase an impossible dream and want all grades in all areas in the world to conform to the same system completely acurately? It will never, never happen. There are too many variables - rock type, climate, length of problems, gravity (have people noticed how many areas of the world seem to have stronger gravity than others? eg: Fontainebleau has far stronger gravity than Chironico, for example :wink: )

Grades -  nice, useful things and something that will keep Bubbas forum ticking over for ever, but mostly irrelevant. Can we discuss something different?


Shit. I decided not to post on any of these threads 'cos it didn't matter, and nobody gives a shit anyway, and now look whats happened. Please excuse my early morning stream of conciousness.
 :wink:

[a dense loner]

this is all very true about training methods and grades and problems changing, some suiting some people and some not. personnally i like going to the edge once in a while so i can try percy's problems because i know they are alien to me and i have a very hard time on them. i never look at grades in a wall, i learnt that long ago. for me wall climbing and bouldering (outside) are 2 different beasts and i treat them like that. on the point that 10 people have given a consensus and 2 have spoken out does not mean the 10 are right tho. the people i know who have done ache ball all say it's not 8a, that includes people in the 10 camp who have not said anything publically but given a wry smile when asked. this is not to demean the efforts of dave or anyone who has done it and thinks it's 8a. the majority is not always right, in fact i have found the majority to be like sheep

[a dense loner]

ps i'm not arguing with the grade of ache ball here, i'm offering a discussion on humanity. i have never and probably will never boulder in devon. so will never be able to offer my twopenneth realistically

[Ru]

I wasn't going to reply to this either. Anyway, after doing a bouldering guide my opinion on grades has changed completely. I started doing the bouldering guide firmly of the opinion that grades should be tough and font 8a was the living end. But, in the course of writing the guide I sought as much opinion as I could. The one thing that came out was the complete lack of agreement. I could ask ten very good climbers about the grade of one problem and get a grade spread of about 5 grades with everyone adament that they are right. Here's an example. Unclesomebody uses the Press Left Sit Start as an example of a proper hard old-school problem. This is 8a+. The Terrace is oft cited as very soft at 7c+, 7b has been mentioned. Yet when I asked Vickers about these problems he though the Terrace was very hard - a bit of a bogus problem for him, as it was for me until it "clicked". However, the Press left sit start he dispatched very fast and couldn't see what the fuss was about. There are hundreds of other examples.

Whilst doing the guide, and since then, I have climbed in font in some good conditions - something I'd never done before - and was astounded at how straight forward many things were. I've now done a fair amount of harder problems in the forest, old skool and new skool ones, including a few 8as.  I felt some were soft and some were solid at the grade. I don't find that all old-skool problems are harder than the new skool ones. So I've also changed my mind about font 8as in font being much harder than ones over here - they're not, and are just as variable.

So in conclusion, I've gone from angry young grading man, a la James, to being more of the Percy persuasion. I think that there is more variation in a given persons ability to climb all problems at a given grade, than there is between the grades themselves, with the upshot that all bouldering grades are almost impossible to pin down to within about 3 grades. If I were to use the system I used to get grades for the bouldering guide on Ache Ball I would say that two people say 7c, many others say soft 8a, conclusion, 7c+/hard 7c+.

[fashionguru]

Ok my last post on this matter, as I seam to have stirred up some people including myself into disscussing this matter, that would not normaly have posted.

Ferret yes I do aggree with you and if the problem was in the peak would not get 8a. But that aside, unless you are going to change all the grades all over the world to a std (say peak std) then we are always going to get these anominalies.

You have to be subjective and subjective within the area you climb.
As stated Font has always been a hard place to climb as was the US when we first got hold of V grades and all went out to Heuco and got our arses Kicked, but yet you will always get places that are easy for grade(Magic Woods i have been told) and hard.

So the point I was trying to make is you have to look at alll the problems in the same area and work around the grades and also take the grade that seams to be std for that problem not decide 4/5 years (cant remember when Simon actually did it) down the line that it is not its right grade when it has seen so many repeats. Just because one person finds it easy.

I will make a point that a very good personal friend did some new problems in Churnnet this summer one of which is probably 8a. Yet he can know after doing it for the first time and getting his sequnce dialed do it every single time even at the end of the day, so does that make it any less of the grade.

Cheers thats all folks.

[Bonjoy]

Well put Ru. My own experience has led to the same conclusions (with regard to lowlier grades of course). Grades are a very slippery fish indeed.
 Before raising the 'old skool' stuff onto a pedestal, it's worth looking at old bouldering guides, mags and films, to see just how off the mark the original grading of 'old skool' problems really was. Most 'old skool' probs are only tough because they have been regraded by the 'nu skool' (why am I spelling 'school' like a twat? :? ).

ps. For what it's worth I know nowt of Ache Ball, but given the peeps I have spoken to, would trust their judgment that it wouldn't get 8a in the peak.

[Ru]

 Before raising the 'old skool' stuff onto a pedestal, it's worth looking at old bouldering guides, mags and films, to see just how off the mark the original grading of 'old skool' problems really was. Most 'old skool' probs are only tough because they have been regraded by the 'nu skool' .

Didn't Deliverance get 8a on One Summer?

[Johnny Brown]

If I were to use the system I used to get grades for the bouldering guide on Ache Ball I would say that two people say 7c, many others say soft 8a, conclusion, 7c+/hard 7c+.

Ha ha, very funny Ru. As we all know, you actually used a grading science flowchart which went something like this:-

Q1. Can I do it?
A. Yes, therefore it is easy. Compare my estimate with any other offers. Use lowest grade offered.

A. No. Go to 2.

Q2. Is it reachy?
A. Yes. It is just a question of reach. Ignore all offered grades and downgrade by a full grade.
A. No. Go to 3.

Q3. Is it on slopers or slabby?
A. Yes. If its not steep or crimpy it cannot be hard. Ignore all offers and downgrade by a full grade or grade and a half depending on how slabby or slopey.
B. No, its crimpy, steep or both. Go to 4

Q4. Can I do a one-armer on any hold?
A. Yes. It isn't hard. Take lowest of all offered grades and downgrade by half a grade.
A. No. It is the Ace. The grade stands.

[Control freak]

If I were to use the system I used to get grades for the bouldering guide on Ache Ball I would say that two people say 7c, many others say soft 8a, conclusion, 7c+/hard 7c+.

Ha ha, very funny Ru. As we all know, you actually used a grading science flowchart which went something like this:-

Q1. Can I do it?
A. Yes, therefore it is easy. Compare my estimate with any other offers. Use lowest grade offered.

A. No. Go to 2.

Q2. Is it reachy?
A. Yes. It is just a question of reach. Ignore all offered grades and downgrade by a full grade.
A. No. Go to 3.

Q3. Is it on slopers or slabby?
A. Yes. If its not steep or crimpy it cannot be hard. Ignore all offers and downgrade by a full grade or grade and a half depending on how slabby or slopey.
B. No, its crimpy, steep or both. Go to 4

Q4. Can I do a one-armer on any hold?
A. Yes. It isn't hard. Take lowest of all offered grades and downgrade by half a grade.
A. No. It is the Ace. The grade stands.

Genious  :D

[Stu Littlefair]

You just know that Rupert's going to be at the plantation this weekend, trying to one-arm the crimps on the ace now, don't you  :roll:

[cofe]

If I were to use the system I used to get grades for the bouldering guide on Ache Ball I would say that two people say 7c, many others say soft 8a, conclusion, 7c+/hard 7c+.

Ha ha, very funny Ru. As we all know, you actually used a grading science flowchart which went something like this:-

Q1. Can I do it?
A. Yes, therefore it is easy. Compare my estimate with any other offers. Use lowest grade offered.

A. No. Go to 2.

Q2. Is it reachy?
A. Yes. It is just a question of reach. Ignore all offered grades and downgrade by a full grade.
A. No. Go to 3.

Q3. Is it on slopers or slabby?
A. Yes. If its not steep or crimpy it cannot be hard. Ignore all offers and downgrade by a full grade or grade and a half depending on how slabby or slopey.
B. No, its crimpy, steep or both. Go to 4

Q4. Can I do a one-armer on any hold?
A. Yes. It isn't hard. Take lowest of all offered grades and downgrade by half a grade.
A. No. It is the Ace. The grade stands.

i always knew this chick could be funny.

[unclesomebody]

some excellent replies, and I just wanted to thank everyone for actually taking the time to write something that makes sense and conveys their opinions.  It's good to hear that the art of discussion still lives on!

Fashionguru, I have figured out who you are, using some poirot like skills.

I guess that for me, i can only compare every new problem I do to the problems I have done before. This means I can relate the difficulty for me personally. If I compare acheball to many other things, it wasn't that difficult. So for me it is 7C. This means that compared to everything I have done it is 7C. This means that any problem I have done at 7C+ is harder than ache ball. What this shows is that my personal grading scale (hold on, am I dave graham?!?!) has the most difficult problems associated with the biggest grades. If I claimed ache ball as 8A it would mean that it is harder that anything I have done before, which it is not.

Someone made a really good point that grading scales are variable all over the world. This is not ideal in my opinion, but it is the way it is. So, for me, from now on, I can only compare each new problem to the basket of problems that I have done before. Now as the basket grows bigger and I gain more knowledge/experience I will be in a better position to comment on grades. Anyway, after all this, the grade is unimportant, as Percy rightly says. The problem has been climbed, and by virtue of that I just want to climb something harder. So, on to font!