[remus]

What a beautiful piece of footage. No Kalymnos bolting there.

[spidermonkey09]

So good! Thanks jwi.

Off the top of your head, which routes at ceuse are Edlingers? Changement de Look, Femme Noire, Femme Blanche...others?

[CrimpyMcCrimpface]

Incredible footage, the route looks like an absolute romp. Obscene amount of subtly blowing into his own hands, unbeatable.

[jwi]

So good! Thanks jwi.

Off the top of your head, which routes at ceuse are Edlingers? Changement de Look, Femme Noire, Femme Blanche...others?

Tons more on Berlin and Demi Lune. Blockage Violent, Berlin, Poinçonneur des Lilas, ... Grimper magazine had a special issue on Ceuse a few years ago with a great section on the first era of sport climbing in Ceuse. (Before widespread adoption of bolts, it was mostly known as a bouldering spot)

[peterbeal]

Patrick Edlinger climbing Consensus (8a+) in Cimaï. In High Definition.



Impeccable

I wonder how many kneebars are used these days on this route? Looks like a lot of potential for them

[jwi]

I wonder how many kneebars are used these days on this route? Looks like a lot of potential for them

I think the entire quarry sector in Cimai is banned and has been banned for a long time? (I have never been to Cimai so I might be wrong).

[jakaitch]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

[remus]

I think the entire quarry sector in Cimai is banned and has been banned for a long time? (I have never been to Cimai so I might be wrong).

Consensus has been logged a few times on 8a.nu in the last few years, might be one of those where it's officially banned but people still climb there on the down low?

[Teaboy]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

Shots fired!

[northern yob]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

Finally someone at the upper end of the sport talking sense about grades! 100% what Dave said…..

[andy moles]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

In summary, it's E10 because:

1. He reckons he overestimated the physical difficulty/sport grade (because it's awkward to work on a rope)
2. He's not really sure, and he'd rather err on the harsh side, partly as a corrective to overgrading and partly because it's less grief for him than going the other way

[northern yob]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

In summary, it's E10 because:

1. He reckons he overestimated the physical difficulty/sport grade (because it's awkward to work on a rope)
2. He's not really sure, and he'd rather err on the harsh side, partly as a corrective to overgrading and partly because it's less grief for him than going the other way

Despite being a somewhat true account of it, that’s a shocking summary of it and in no way helpful to the grade debate…. Are you actually disregarding the only (and most prolific hard trad climber in the country) person who’s done the routes opinion??

That’ll help 🤣

[andy moles]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

In summary, it's E10 because:

1. He reckons he overestimated the physical difficulty/sport grade (because it's awkward to work on a rope)
2. He's not really sure, and he'd rather err on the harsh side, partly as a corrective to overgrading and partly because it's less grief for him than going the other way

Despite being a somewhat true account of it, that’s a shocking summary of it and in no way helpful to the grade debate…. Are you actually disregarding the only (and most prolific hard trad climber in the country) person who’s done the routes opinion??

That’ll help 🤣

What? 

Please explain why that's not a good summary, and why you think I'm disregarding his opinion.

Genuinely confused, as I think those points pretty accurately summarise what he says about grading Echo Wall E10 in the video.

Edit: if you mean it's not a true summary of the whole video, I know, it wasn't meant to be, it was a direct response to the leading line 'Dave Mac reckons Echo Wall is E10'.

[northern yob]

It washes over the 25min justification he gives for his views with a load of context and just adds to the myth he’s a sandbagger. My mistake if that’s not the message you were trying to get across, but it’s what I took from your post. It’s refreshing to have someone at the top end being truly objective and honest about their process and thoughts.

[northern yob]

Just reread your post and I was definitely a bit quick to jump down your throat sorry.

[andy moles]

Apology accepted! I wasn't meaning to diminish what he says about subjective inputs etc, just summarising the reasons for giving Echo Wall E10 specifically.

[Fiend]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons a big provocative title about NOT CLIMBING E11 (after being quite prolific climbing E11s) will rake in the views and subs 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

P.S. Haven't watched yet, is this the same Echo Wall that was "ungraded but definitely harder than Rhapsody E11"??

[PeteHukb]

I like Dave and clearly he's almost peerless when it comes to hard trad in the UK across a variety of styles, but he does somewhat tie himself up in knots in this video. Most notably, earlier on he shrugs off the downgrade of the Longhope route ("I probably thought about it for ten minutes") - with what could well be a veiled dig at Pearson - but then later says he errs on the harsh side of grading partly to save himself "the pain" of a downgrade. I mean, clearly the guy is at liberty to say whatever he likes but he loses a little respect from me from seeming so dismissive of the emotional impact of downgrading on the first ascensionist when clearly he's not immune to it himself.

[remus]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons a big provocative title about NOT CLIMBING E11 (after being quite prolific climbing E11s) will rake in the views and subs 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

P.S. Haven't watched yet, is this the same Echo Wall that was "ungraded but definitely harder than Rhapsody E11"??

One of the things he gets in to in the vid is how "hard for me" might just mean the route doesn't fit your style, and how he doesn't consider himself particularly bold so Echo Wall might fall in the the "hard for me but not others" bracket.

Reading between the lines a little, I suspect he'd probably give Rhapsody E10 if he did it these days.

[Will Hunt]

Don't know where this belongs, but Dave Mac reckons echo wall is E10 and a bunch of other interesting chat 👀

https://youtu.be/B-48S7gLP_I?si=yfqRYeeU26qnxjWd

100% beef 

[andy moles]

Reading between the lines a little, I suspect he'd probably give Rhapsody E10 if he did it these days.

Also reading between the lines, I think he'd like someone to repeat Echo Wall.

Interesting also what he says about Face Mecca, that he thinks only a few people could do it.

[andy moles]

100% beef 

Subtle beef? I didn't get that particularly. He disagrees with the grading machine but that's hardly beef 

[remus]

Just watching the vid again, one of the main things he seems to be suggesting is that trad grades should be pretty wide (e.g. Tolerance E8 and ~7b+ vs Darwin Dixit E8 and ~8b+). To me, the grade is kind of useless at that point, I could likely do one of those with a week or two of work, whereas the other might (big might) happen if I spent 5-10 years training in a dedicated fashion. At that point the grade isn't really conveying any useful information about my chances of getting up the route, so what is it for?

You could also look at it from the less puntery end of the spectrum: is there anyone who would solo Darwin Dixit but not be able to climb Tolerance? Seems unlikely.

[jwi]

Just watching the vid again, one of the main things he seems to be suggesting is that trad grades should be pretty wide (e.g. Tolerance E8 and ~7b+ vs Darwin Dixit E8 and ~8b+). To me, the grade is kind of useless at that point, I could likely do one of those with a week or two of work, whereas the other might (big might) happen if I spent 5-10 years training in a dedicated fashion. At that point the grade isn't really conveying any useful information about my chances of getting up the route, so what is it for?

You could also look at it from the less puntery end of the spectrum: is there anyone who would solo Darwin Dixit but not be able to climb Tolerance? Seems unlikely.

But is this not what one full french lettergrade difference implies?

A soft 8a+ can take me two days of work (it it is really ludicrously soft and suits me well), an hard 8b+ ... well I will likely never do one in my life (I tried one that was an extension of an 8a+ I did in four-five tries. I tried it for a full season and did not feel super-close to sending).

[remus]

At least you've got a couple of grades difference there. Dave is suggesting they're both the same grade!