[Fiend]

Dunno where I am going with so forgive any rambling...

First off this is not a topic for the bumblies and numpties who, in an impressive display of lacking self-awareness and indeed braincells, randomly chuck a piece of gear at a crack, and assuming it halfway wedges in and takes it's own weight, happily clip it and run it out in a display of inept thrutching despite the fact a 3 year old could see the gear is a pile of bollox that is gently resting on the rock face rather than actually protecting the climbing, and then wonder why I get pissed off having to help drag their remains down to the parking spot.

This is a topic for people who know what they are doing - or at least know that they don't know what they are doing and are thus prepared to learn.

Okay, so what are peoples' thoughts on the whole issue of pro?? A few areas interest me....

- how much time to we spend faffing around with pro on trad routes??

Really quite a lot it seems. I've seen enough instances of people climbing, and indeed my own climbing, where it's been 75% fiddling gear in, 25% climbing. Obviously it's not always the case and enough routes have obvious (or no...) gear and the balance of protecting and climbing is good....but equally there's enough that seem to be just an almighty faffathon  :? No wonder we're such a bunch of punters in this country.

- do people have any tricks and tips for placing protection more effeciently??

Related to the above point, I tend to come unstuck when there's too much faffing around with protection - you know the shit - hanging around, pumping out, fiddling in some unconvincing bollox, sweat pouring off, dropping wires, etc etc. Horrible. I've learnt a few things - don't place unnecessary gear, if needed climb a bit higher so you can see what you're doing, have a good look around for alternative pro etc, switch sizes quickly if the current size ain't working. Any veteran tips for improving quick placing though??

- just how reliable IS protection??

A question that's prominent to me as I've very rarely fallen in the past (say one proper fall every few hundred leads), but recently I've got into the idea of being prepared to fall instead of being such a pussy. Obviously this requires actually surviving the fall, to be remotely useful. But my lack of experience tells here - I just don't know what "decent" (as opposed to perfectly bombproof - that is obvious and unworrying enough) gear will hold... Any got some good ideas, anecdotes etc on that subject?? (Incidentally one of my bigger falls was onto a shallow 3/4 wallnut (with a good 5 beneath), which I was sure wasn't going to hold but it did, adding to the confusion).

- any other thoughts / issues / discussion etc??

[Fiend]

LOL, no, far from it. Have edited the post, SiO style, to prevent confusion.

[Fiend]

Anyone got any thoughts or ideas about pro in general? Lots of views for no replies, and I know a lot of people here have done trad or still do...


Anyway...

Personally I think there's a limit to how complex wedging bits of metal into bits of rock can get.

Well, yes, mechnically simple, but given that your life depends on it, and that placing pro is so intrinsic to the challenge of many trad climbs, I find it thought provoking....I still don't know what pro is capable of, how good good pro is, how good bad pro is....where to find the balance between making everything perfectly safe, and actually getting up climbs....

[dave]

one tip someone told me is if you're on a big route with a lot of gear is to place mainly nuts wherever you can low down, thus saving your valuable cams for higher up when you're fucked and will more benefit for the quick and easy gear.

dunno what else i can suggest - personally i don't really get attracted to routes where the placing of gear interferes with the climbing - unless i can solo them but that of course means they have to be in your comfort zone.

[moose]

one tip someone told me is if you're on a big route with a lot of gear is to place mainly nuts wherever you can low down, thus saving your valuable cams for higher up when you're fucked and will more benefit for the quick and easy gear.

Sounds sensible except for the first bit of gear - isn't that meant to be able to take multi-directional pulls (i.e. is a cam or a thread) to resist unzipping?  

On a personal level I reckon faffing less is THE key to improvement.  I'm becoming convinced that when I decide to place gear I should give it my full attention, and, once I've got a good bit in, go for it - fully commit to the next section of climbing (being prepared to run it out just a little if the gear was bomber and would prevent a ground fall).  No hanging around placing bits of redundant "just in case" gear  that just get in the way.  The number of climbs I've done where it would have been safer all round if I'd placed half the quantity of gear and done them twice as quick (almost having an aneurysm topping out strapiobampte springs to mind!)

Mind you the implementation of this tactic does depend on having the experience to correctly assess the goodness of the gear and the likely length of the next bit of climbing.  A bit of an obstacle being as my trad is bumblyish even by the standards of my bouldering.

[dave]

one tip someone told me is if you're on a big route with a lot of gear is to place mainly nuts wherever you can low down, thus saving your valuable cams for higher up when you're fucked and will more benefit for the quick and easy gear.

Sounds sensible except for the first bit of gear - isn't that meant to be able to take multi-directional pulls (i.e. is a cam or a thread) to resist unzipping?  

a suitably placed nut will be good for an outwards pull. often its not worth worrying about though, like if the belayer is standing close in as they aften will be. also if you take a pisser at 20m and you've got a piece of gear every 5-8foot then its not going to make much odds to you if the first couple were to pull. but obviosuly use discretion.

[Paz]

one tip someone told me is if you're on a big route with a lot of gear is to place mainly nuts wherever you can low down, thus saving your valuable cams for higher up when you're fucked and will more benefit for the quick and easy gear.

dunno what else i can suggest - personally i don't really get attracted to routes where the placing of gear interferes with the climbing - unless i can solo them but that of course means they have to be in your comfort zone.

That was one of Thin's wasn't it?  It can be good to put a multidirectional piece  (e.g. a cam) at the start.

It's amazing the stuff different people pick up independently about climbing, that's the same thing.  Hopefully that means you're doing something right

Anyway, gear/pro.  This is obviously something I've picked up from the Avon Gorge but if you can then place as much gear as possible.  I don't claim to be an expert but I place a lot of it.  
Only if the route is exceptionally safe should you be worrying about managing your rack so you don't run out of quick drawrs.  Even if you don't think it's necessary for a fall it's anchoring the team to the rock on a multipitch route.  Just carry enough drawers when you set off.   I don't buy a light weight approach.  Even watching bold E5 climbers at Avon and even Pembroke - they all use the same amount of gear to climb E5 (in some cases because you're not spoilt for choice) even when it's safe.  They also take similar amounts of time,  do faff a bit and take a while but so what?  Trad climbing, especially onsighting, takes time.  If you don't put as much gear in (e.g. because you haven't brought as much), then hats off to your good lead head, but in effect you're increasing the trad grade of the route by making it more runout and you'd better keep your head - you're relying on that now for your safety just as much as the bits of metal in the rock.  Me, I know myself better now and I'd rather trust the stuff in the rock.  Especially if I'm onsightin and don't know what's going to happen.  If I'm not going to trust as many bits of metal in the rock as I can manage (when they're good) then I should stick to bouldering ;-) .  I am bold though (from Avon remember), but I can't rely on being bold when I'm climbing as physically hard as I possibly can on gear.  If I could do that then great, but perhaps I'd be able to climb even harder on gear if there were more of it.  Apart from the intense grit HVSs that people normally fail on (e.g. where you get your HVS from 3m of climbing) this is another reason why I don't buy that most people you meet do any remotely hard trad climbing (for them) on Alpine routes (the ones you'd quintessentialy employ the fast and light approach), even if they're climbing hard Alpine Routes.  There's a fixed gear issue with Alpine Routes too, sometimes they sound more like sport than trad.  

That's what you can use gear for too - just to give you that extra psychological impetus to make the next move and keep climbing, and keep relaxed.  

Placing it quickly, is that all about familiarity with your own rack and with the rock you're on?  Generally, and I've belayed on a bad accident this summer that disputes this but nonetheless, generally I hear more often about gear holding than ripping.  Scarily often, even shit gear holding.  I've only ever ripped bits that I thought were going to rip (once upon a time at Stanage on a VD and some where else).  Embarassingly I've also only pulled holds off that I thought were shit at the time.  A tree branch snapping surprised me once but even though I decked out on to I was OK and once again the next piece held (it was above  45 degree slope).  

Even when the top one rips, (on the recent accident, at Stanage, and at the other two) the next piece always held.  This was also the case for a mate who ripped some gear he'd pissed about with (trying to replace it higher).  On this route, gear rips a lot.  Some people think it should be upgraded, because even though there's a crack you can pack bomber nuts and cams in from a shake out (that isn't so great), some people rush in cams that aren't so good and as the vast majority of us at first fail on the blind slappy 6a/b crux anyway, a lot of people then fall off or sit on their gear.  There's bomber gear, but it's just that little bit unobvious, the crack's a bit fiddly.  On the third day, I down climbed to the ramp and had a 20 minute rest then got it after that no problem.  There can be a dilemma there about whether to use your energy to protect something well or get on with it.  I guess you've just got to look out for that situation before it happens and if you find yourself in it, know what's acceptable to you and how long you can hang on for putting stuff in and how likely it is that in fact you'll reliably piss the crux and how likely it is you'll still do the crux even if you're knackered.  

Maybe like what happen's to gruff, apparent good gear's ripped out of a safe pembroke route on a guy from staffordshire, that I myself've pulled hard on a couple of times while seconding.  It seems harsh to put it down to leader error, even if logically that looks like what happened.  Maybe we just have to accept that you can get caught out.  Whatever it is worrying about it will do more harm than good (e.g. to your head and your climbing), better to just get on with making your gear as good as you can.  In the majority of cases it holds and in general it's probably as good as you think it is.  It's obviously non-trivial to implement and trust your gear placing skills when pumped at your limit, but in general I know I can make routes as safe as they can be, and my gear's safer and more cunning than that of a lot of other climbers (going by my seconds' complaints about stuck stuff), especially those sanctimonious 10-screw-gate-carrying expert-system-escapers mountain VD climbers who are primarily safe because they never fall off.  How do you really know how good your system is if you never test it?

[Bonjoy]

Like someone else said place bomb shelters at rests, spot the next rest above and go for it decisively with all thought of stopping before then set aside. Doing plenty of sport routes helps with this as the bolt spacing is often further apart than gear placements on trad routes.
 Use lots of long draws to avoid gear pulling when you climb above it. Scared climber often use short draws to minimise fall length and then take a big whipper when it rips, because the short draw is more suseptible to outforce as you fall.
 Climb up place gear and climb down again for a rest. It's not cheating, whatever some fools tell you.
 Where possible hang off straight arms when placing gear.
 Have stamina.

[Pantontino]

All the theory listed above is good and bang on the money, but for me the real change came from climbing with 'good' (i.e. competent) climbers. Not necessarily the fittest or strongest, just good old fashioned useful. A friend of mine was always solid E5 onsight, nothing too flashy, just clean and efficient. I learnt a lot from just watching how he climbed any given pitch. Instead of just ripping gear out when I was seconding, I was thinking about what decisions he was making at any given point on the route.

It still takes endless amounts of mileage, and the fitter you are the easier it is to learn.

[Falling Down]

It still takes endless amounts of mileage, and the fitter you are the easier it is to learn.

Amen to that...  and to climbing with more experienced steady leaders... thats how I learned to place gear properly.

I've never really thought about the whole gear issue in this level of detail though.

Stamina and a cool head counts...

[SA Chris]

I've never given it much thought either, just an aspect of the game.

FWIW, I generally prefer resonably rather than well protected routes, as I am always encouraged to press on if the gear is below my feet, and generally most of my pump comes from hanging around placing it.

I reckon if you have been at it for long enough you can generally judge for yourself whats good, whats OK and what is crap. I still think the old beginners trick of just playing with gear at the bottom of the crag has loads of merit.

Fiend, do you remember that day when we were talking about measuring up cracks by finger width, to see what Friends fitted best? Did you ever lok into that any further?

[Fiend]

Thanks for the replies. Interesting to read different people's perspectives. I do wonder how much we have to struggle in this country given (proportionately) how many of our climbs are bold or with obtuse protection. No wonder bouldering and costa del orange house are so popular.

Anyway...

Dave -

personally i don't really get attracted to routes where the placing of gear interferes with the climbing

Yeah I know what you mean. I like trad, I like placing gear, I like having to work it out, but when it becomes a bloody awkward faffathon, it just gets tedious. Like doing something like L'Horla at Curbar, the main difficulty of the route is fiddling in gear in awkward positions, the climbing is pretty fun but it kind of gets lost in the fiddling. I sometimes wonder what the point of it all is - trad should be focusing on climbing with self-placed gear to protect you, rather than focused on the placing of that gear.


Moose - wise words indeed. I think that is definitely the key. Although, it depends of having the mental fortitude to focus on that plan of placing the right amount then going (personally I certainly don't have this yet), as well as the experience (which personally I do have).


Chris -  aye, I'd forgotten that idea. Not surprising really I was in a bad way, mentally, at that time. Hmmmm will consider that idea again.


Paz - very interesting thoughts as usual. For me, I know I place good gear, I have the same thing with cursing seconds having to hang on the rope to chisel stuff out. It's one thing I feel intellectually confident about (when it's available). Translating that into emotional confidence is a whole different kettle of fish - partly because I very rarely test it. Although one of the biggest falls I've taken was onto a small, shallow wire I didn't think would hold (clear fall out zone and good gear below tho). I guess I could do some fall testing on some suitabley esoteric route with a back up rope or something. I dunno. Anyone regularly testing their gear huh?

Well. Got some food for thought anyway.