[Fiend]

I hate organised training. Bores me silly. Sessions down the wall are as much for fun as to get stronger and fitter.

Equally, I really rather like improving my trad climbing and feeling physically more able to cope with it's challenges.

Given that inauspicious start, it's a challenge in itself to find an effective way of training whilst pretending that it's not effective training. Not least because training for trad needs to focus on all the boring aspects (stamina) rather than the mildly interesting ones (power).

Has anyone got any interesting ideas how to do that?? Train for trad without the boredom...??

Here's some I thought of:

Routing:

Sport climbing - yay! good fun and good for all round route fitness.

Indoor routing - not bad, needs to be done slowly and cautiously to have any chance of mimicing the stamina needed outdoors.

Bouldering:

Outdoor bouldering - good for technique and feel but that's it.

Indoors - possibly reasonable training if you try to flash everything and hang on and work out sequences rather than just jumping off - mimics the hanging-on aspect.

Training training:

Deadhangs - could be good for the hanging on aspect.

General workout - training opposing muscles, calves etc.

Fitness:

Running etc - boring as fuck, don't be silly.


Thoughts??

[Palomides]

The most effective trainign depends on ones weaknesses.

I have a generally low level of general fitness and found that I had my best years climbing ever after a winter of occasional indoor climbing and weekly circuit training - which I enjoyed a great deal. The class I ended up in was run by a guy who was into fell-running, so was biased towards running around like a loony. The presence of lithe young women in lycra was also a nice change from my my usual climbing-wall peer group.

[Necro]

how about having some self discipline and do some training?

[Fiend]

Palidomes, yeah, I can see that's useful. Hoping to avoid that sort of thing though.


Necro, thank you for your incredibly well thought out and indisputably useful response. Your grasp of what I'm asking about is unparalleled and you should be exceptionally pleased with your contribution.

[Necro]

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[Necro]

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[Jim]

[Bubba]

Necro - the nature of your personal attacks on Fiend on this and other topics are not acceptable, so cut it out now please. Banter between mates is one thing, but telling somebody to "shut up", especially since you've only been on here like for a day, is out of order. If you don't have anything useful to contribute to the forum, then don't post.

Please read this thread: http://ukbouldering.com/board/viewtopic.php?t=3145

Also, your avatar was much too big, so I've deleted it - please feel free to find a smaller one.

[Paz]

I don't know about you but the thing I fear most when trad climbing is the pump.  The hard moves I can back off from or climb around if they don't sneak up on me, the big runouts should be either easy at the grade or de-rigeur for Bristolians, accidents only happen to other people or people I belay or who belay me, so since my technique is flawless (in my head) it is the pump that will be the death of me (as long as I don't pull any more fucking holds off).  

However you must learn to love it, to manage it, to deal with it in your head, and to get to the next rest before it makes you fall off.  

So I've never really managed to feel the difference between aerobic/SACC pump stamina pump endurance pump and powering out pump like the training articles say.  This is probably because I'm shit and all four happen to me simultaneously if I actually haven't wussed in the mean time.  
But anyway the first scientifically inexplicable but empirically justified, standard anecdote I can offer is: "It's amazing how long you can hang on for/ keep climbing for when you're pumped".  This is practically passe`, and is often heard after someone's done a redpoint they're particularly pleased with.  You and I know that it can also be amazing how little an amount of time you can hang on for when you're not familiar with the ground ahead and it's hard (or how amazing it is how long I can hang on at a rest for apparently not climbing anywhere at all).  But anyway I'm not saying you'll actually get better, but if at all possible as well as the grit bouldering it's useful to stay pumped half the time over the winter, because you'll remember what it's like, and will remember how long you can keep going for.  

E.g. traverse like it's 1985.  Long, easy, steep and pumpy.  The best things about this is you don't get injured, you don't have to try 100% like with full on power, you're even allowed sloppy technique if it saves you time like if it's a route and you're allowed to fall off if you get straight back on again, because the point isn't the tick, the point is to get pumped.  There's no use resting and starting again if you fall off as you'll just lose the pump you'd already worked so hard to get up to that point.  

Do lots of slightly easier safe trad routes.  Unlike the above traverse where you probably aren't bothered about using precisely the best sequence for 60m plus of comparitively easy but steep climbing, the days are short, you want to get the mileage in (that's the point), and the belayer's going to be pissed at you if you sit around on ledges while they're freezing their tits off.  So do routes you've done before with quick spaced bomber gear.  You're keeping your gear skills sharp here too, as well as the movement flowing, there's nothing like that pump you get fiddling in gear.  But you have to be warm.  Some muntin earing freinds even talked about getting their 5 daily 30m HVSs in with big boots on and a rucksack (under the bridge) but they never did it.  and the routes should be the sort that are pumpy if you're out of practise, but piss if you're going well.  Around about vertical with bulges for interest (and rests for RnR).  On crag that don't seep.  I might be describing Stoney, but I'm sure there's more in the guide.  

You can even get this mileage in on top rope or shunt, but if I had a partner I'd do something more exciting (Bird restrictions, Cheddar and the unique atmosphere of a big swell at a sea cliff, is the other reason I'm advocating winter trad mileage) and I inexplicably seem to get the fear when shunting.  I just went with it last winter though and got pumped whenever I could.  It wasn't that often, but enough to help your brain remember how much pump you can cope with.  The other anecdote from the 80s is `It's all in the mind'.  You're up against it full stop in winter (with the weather and belayer lethargy), sport climbing and the wall makes more sense, but for me I find they don't quite help as much as I'd like with trad routes unles you actually get stronger or a right lot fitter (i.e train).

[Fiend]

Thanks for your reply Paz, thought provoking as usual, and I will bear the advice in mind - yeah it pretty much is all about the pump really...

You're keeping your gear skills sharp here too, as well as the movement flowing, there's nothing like that pump you get fiddling in gear.

...especially that sort of pump!

Looking at what the issues really are gives me some ideas though...


Anyone else got any thoughts??

[Falling Down]

Anyone else got any thoughts??

I'm experimenting with looong low intensity sessions on the wall - my fitness has improved stacks this year with doing circuits and actually training stamina rather than pretending to.

iPod shuffles are the way forward - I spent an hour and a half on the sh*t bouldering wall in Aberdeen on Wednesday night without touching the floor - I felt sick afterwards though - just like after doing a hard trad route and spending ages fiddling gear with a permanent pump on (ooer)

The sport projects that I didn't tick this year just running through my head all the time when hanging on pumped are a great motivator.

Personally I reckon you're gonna have to get to grips with 'boring' stamina training and running 'n stuff and spend less time on computer games and toy soldiers if you want to get proper fit like.

[Falling Down]

Oh and go to Horsheshoe lots over the winter and do all the 6c's twice every time you go.

[Fiend]

Thanks for the advice about circuits. Hmmm reckon some musical accompaniment is a good idea.


BTW, I am very proud and happy of my other hobbies....they are also a good contrast to climbing.


Oh, and...

go to Horsheshoe lots

Hmmmm if I want THAT much suffering I might as well go running...

[r-man]

Anyone else got any thoughts??

iPod shuffles are the way forward - I spent an hour and a half on the sh*t bouldering wall in Aberdeen on Wednesday night without touching the floor - I felt sick afterwards though

Had a similiar experience. When I was in Salzburg I used to do traverses regularly on the nearest bit of rock. Every session I increased the laps. Got up to 10 laps once and was doing it in about 15-20min per lap (that was going fast - it was pretty long). I was on the rock for about 2 and a half hours and when I came off I felt physically sick.

There's something to be said for up problems as opposed to traverses though. Reckon the fittest I've ever been was when after doing 20min fast traversing I used to do all the problems in the norwich cave one after the other. After a few sessions your body gets used to it and it just becomes a warm up.

[Falling Down]

There's something to be said for up problems as opposed to traverses though...

Yup - Figure of eight circuits IMHO are better than routes for endurance - the down climbing is a killer...

Fiend - I was only having a dig 'cos I used to paint figures too (when I was 12....  :wink: ).

[Fiend]

A further thought...

I've found leading a route indoors, and downclimbing unclipping as you go, to be excellent for getting a good pump going. In fact, such a good pump that after doing this on an easy jug pull to warm up, I'm usually trashed for the whole  session  

[Paz]

I've done that for a long session blast about once a year (when the lead routes were busy) and some friends seem to be taking it seriously having called in `Pyramid sets', on the F5s (not much harder than F6a) vertical top rope routes.  You probably don't get any stronger and the moves on the way down are a little specific to the task, but you're doing an amazing amount more mileage and it really does trash you as you say.  Also the fact that I've only ever done it twice might not be unrelated to the fact that it is one of the most soulsappingly boring exercises I can think of, after training for the Flora London Marathon.  Maybe if anyone manages to stick with it they'll see amazing results.  Also admittedly most other people don't down climb very much or at least in as blatantly uncontrolled a fashion.  But on our UK ledge shuffles you don't encounter many 30deg over hanging 15m walls with in situ quick draws.  Even climbing over roofs outdoors (getting over them) uses way different techniques to roofs indoors (getting across them).