[spidermonkey09]

Like I said, many people are simply unaware that climbing on wet grit damages the rock.

Spread the word about that.

When you said this in response to my post a few weeks ago I was pretty stunned. I'm not really sure how you'd have missed this.

Likewise...

[spidermonkey09]

I'm never going to get my head around some of the (imo, insane) responses on this thread so no point arguing about that. I'm intrigued by the notion that there are experienced climbers on here who didn't know about climbing on wet grit until recently though. It does rather beg the question of how!

Stone, you say you didn't know you shouldn't climb on wet grit until Shauna was on Countryfile, which from a bit of googling I think aired around 2017 when she was in her Olympics cycle? Given you've been climbing so long I find that astonishing. I believe you but I would suggest you are the outlier of outliers.

[Tom de Gay]

Had a quick look at some of my old grit guidebooks. Earliest mention of not climbing wet rock is in a 2010 edition and even then it's very much buried in the small print.

[SamT]

First mention I can find doing a search for "Wet Grit" on this site is 2010 too..

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,13601.msg244785.html#msg244785

I think the idea of it and the spreading of the word coincided with the explosion in bouldering popularity in the mid 2000's following the acceptance/availability of pads, the first guides, stick it etc etc.. then 5 years later folks noticing that popular spots like the plantation were rapidly becoming trashed very quickly and that damp rock was more susceptable.

It wasn't really a 'thing' (to my knowledge) throughout the nineties, when I was climbing on grit every week, working in Outside (so hardly out of the loop).

[SamT]

topic split? (and deletion of Israel/Palestine posts??)

[Bradders]

I'm never going to get my head around some of the (imo, insane) responses on this thread so no point arguing about that. I'm intrigued by the notion that there are experienced climbers on here who didn't know about climbing on wet grit until recently though. It does rather beg the question of how!

Stone, you say you didn't know you shouldn't climb on wet grit until Shauna was on Countryfile, which from a bit of googling I think aired around 2017 when she was in her Olympics cycle? Given you've been climbing so long I find that astonishing. I believe you but I would suggest you are the outlier of outliers.

I think you'd be surprised. Last year there was an incident where a group of very strong and experienced Manchester based climbers were climbing on Zaff Skoczylas. They posted on Insta practically bragging about how they'd dried the starting pocket with a towel etc. you'll know them well as they frequent Malham and Kilnsey.

[spidermonkey09]

I just flicked through some old guides as well to find the same. Interesting!

Sounds like I would be surprised. I wonder what catalysed the beginning of concern.

[andy popp]

topic split? (and deletion of Israel/Palestine posts??)

And all the attempts at medical diagnosis from watching a video.

[SamT]

I wonder what catalysed the beginning of concern.

People starting to notice the rapid wear on popular grit problems at an unprecidented rate.

[SamT]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/forums/rock_talk/climbing_on_wet_gritstone-383508

dates to 2009.. interesting discussion with lots of opposing views

[Yossarian]

Trying to word this as generously as possible, but in my experience the default assumption regarding rock from people who’ve only climbed indoors up to the point they first venture outside is along the lines of, “it’s rock innit, it’s indestructible”.

During lockdown loads of frustrated ex London wall climbers descended on the Kent sandstone and it got fucked to the point at which Eridge Green got closed off completely for a while.

To the geologically uninitiated, gritstone does exhibit a rough, tough  appearance and, if you’re climbing on it for the first time without the benefit of reading the small print in an up-to-date guidebook, I can easily imagine how one might assume it’s not going to affected by a bit of rain.

[Andy W]

It is also worth pointing out that after rain the rock can look dry superficially, but still be damp and fragile, especially sandstone and gritstone. Evident I would have thought but it seems increased  numbers and diminishing collective intelligence in the climbing ‘community’ means it needs spelling out again. Blanket instructions, such as not climbing on wet rock can confuse matters. For example wet granite on a sea cliff is fine to climb on, if it wasn’t many routes would never be climbed 

[andy_e]

wet granite on a sea cliff is fine to climb on

until you pull on a flake that has its join to the rock saturated and it snaps off

[jwi]

In Germany on the Elbe sandstone the guidbook from 1913 says to not climb on wet rock, and since 1989 it has been actual illegal.

[slab_happy]

I think the huge problem is the conflation between objecting to something that needs to stop so as to preserve the rock (ie climbing on wet grit) and people simply not finding the guy's style to their taste.

Direct, private, courteous, communication is the way to let him know about wet grit preservation.

Putting your own info out there is the way to educate wider about wet grit preservation (eg end your own videos with a word saying how you waited until all was dry to preserve the rock or whatever).

If you don't like his style, then there are zillions of quiet, understated, bouldering youtubers to watch. Just move on to one of them.

Regarding the whole neurodivergence discussion, my impression is that if someone has a clear medicalised condition  (eg Down's syndrome) then almost everyone will be kind and accommodating towards them. If someone is judged as having "no excuse" then supposedly it is OK to be utterly vile towards them just for harmlessly being themselves. So this whole thing of endevouring to discern whether someone eg has some very slight manic grandiosity (so should be given slack) or "no excuse" and so should be subject to a "flogging" -that's what sickens me.

On the whole I'm very much inclined to agree with you, except I wanted to add a bit of nuance to this:

Regarding the whole neurodivergence discussion, my impression is that if someone has a clear medicalised condition  (eg Down's syndrome) then almost everyone will be kind and accommodating towards them.

This can often involve being "kind" in a way which means "We'll pretend to treat you like a real person." We'll be "kind" to you because we've categorized you firmly as Defective and Other and not an equal.

This is often not actually a great thing to be on the receiving end of.

[slab_happy]

Can neurodivergent people also be complete bell ends... 

Obviously yes! We're human, after all. Which means that we're as capable of being massive dicks as everyone else.

On the other hand, there's a difference between people being slated for behaviour that's actually harmful (e.g climbing on wet grit, assuming they know why that's a bad idea) and people being singled out because they're presenting themselves in a way which other people find embarrassing/uncool/"off"/cringy.

On the third hand: sometimes you just gotta go "... okay, what does this person even think 'satirical' means?" and boggle for a moment.

And in some ways -- and this is me having a visceral emotional reaction here, not necessarily thought through or at all rational -- it makes me feel uncomfortable when people decide behind someone's back that they're obviously Not Normal and should be tiptoed around, in a way which cuts them off from ordinary or authentic human responses.

It can feel a lot like "Yeah, obviously we all still KNOW this person is embarrassing/uncool/'off'/cringy, but they're defective so they can't help it, so the important thing is that we don't SAY it out loud where they can hear."

[Dingdong]

Wet grit is impossible to climb and so unpleasant I’m not sure why anyone would do it to themselves. I was a Londoner during and post lockdown and even I knew not to climb on wet grit or sandstone so not exactly true blanket statement.

[Andy W]

wet granite on a sea cliff is fine to climb on

until you pull on a flake that has its join to the rock saturated and it snaps off

If it’s tidal it’s wet 50 percent of the time! Have you climbed on granite sea cliffs?

[andy_e]

Whether or not one human has climbed on a certain rock type in a certain location doesn't change the fact that water in any type of pore space, in this case secondary porosity induced by erosion, reduces the effective stress and therefore strength of the rock

[Andy W]

Whether or not one human has climbed on a certain rock type in a certain location doesn't change the fact that water in any type of pore space, in this case secondary porosity induced by erosion, reduces the effective stress and therefore strength of the rock

Well that’s rules out a large percentage of Cornish granite trad routes then.

[andy_e]

yep

[rodma]

Wet grit is impossible to climb and so unpleasant I’m not sure why anyone would do it to themselves. I was a Londoner during and post lockdown and even I knew not to climb on wet grit or sandstone so not exactly true blanket statement.

Back in 2002 when visiting the Peak for a grit bumble, it started to rain a wee bit so I stopped, went to Outside to look at stuff I couldn't afford, then to the Edge for a boulder, where the general concensus was that wet grit was just minging to climb on rather than not climbing onit because it did damage.

Being a Northumberland regular, my feeling at the time was that I couldn't really understand how wet grit would fare any better than wet sandstone so I wouldn't bumble around in the damp. Certainly there were plenty of trad parties carrying on after the rain had started (ie not just finishing the route they were on).

It's not like I'm saying I'm a good guy and that it should be obvious, the event I'm referring to above took place in August after all

[Dingdong]

I mean there’s still the massive problem that trad instruction companies/guides still take people out regularly on the grit when it’s wet, ya always see them climbing 20foot crack at burbage north when it’s soaked. So bad.

[Paul B]

Being a Northumberland regular, my feeling at the time was that I couldn't really understand how wet grit would fare any better than wet sandstone so I wouldn't bumble around in the damp. Certainly there were plenty of trad parties carrying on after the rain had started (ie not just finishing the route they were on).

I was thinking on this (whilst also Googling the Moon Dust packaging "Respect Rocks" which incidentally doesn't specifically cover wet rock) and trying to remember if my initial education regarding not climbing on wet rock originated from my time climbing in Northumberland (I'm from the NE even if I don't sound like it) where the damage has been obvious for quite some time.

It's not that I don't believe you Stone, just as someone who I've known as a climber for years I'm surprised Countryfile was where you first heard of this. Did you not see the 3rd Rock saga where they had an advertising campaign featuring people climbing on wet rock? It didn't go down too well.

[remus]

I mean there’s still the massive problem that trad instruction companies/guides still take people out regularly on the grit when it’s wet, ya always see them climbing 20foot crack at burbage north when it’s soaked. So bad.

tbf those routes, and the stuff at stanage popular that gets mobbed by groups, have held up surprisingly well given the level of traffic and the dodgy conditions they're often climbed in. Most of them were in better (albeit polished) condition than the usual sandy suspects when it comes to boulders last time I was on them (and I can't imagine anyone is superglueing them to prevent erosion). Might just be low expectations on my part though.