[spidermonkey09]

I suspect if there's nothing to nitpick then there won't be many nitpicky comments?? (Will's video aside)

Doesn't this sentence imply that there's nothing to nitpick in my video, when in fact it should be met with nothing but contempt and decision?

Which I hasten to add was the response I gave it on the day, at the time.

If people want to get a message of purity across, then why not restrict that to positive comments bigging up exemplary ascents? So show a video and say "note my backside was planted so deeply in the wet peat, it made a sucking sound as I pulled out to start" or whatever.

This has been covered in other threads I'm sure, but the issue with this approach is that if polite criticism isn't allowed then videos that don't actually do the problem or which include bad practice proliferate. I reject any idea that the only allowed response to something which, lest we forget has been posted online for public consumption, is fire or hail caesar emojis!

[stone]

Are you completely fine with the fact that so many people apparently have been scared off by commenting culture being as it is?

Perhaps you are in the right and those people should just grow a thicker skin. But being in the right doesn't always make the world a better place.

[spidermonkey09]

No I'm not fine with it because I do think some 'callouts' are unnecessarily abrasive and callous. But I equally don't think criticism should be banned from online discourse. Theres a middle ground. If someone does a problem wrong or uses different holds or whatever and seems oblivious its perfectly legitimate to put a polite comment on the video.

[Fiend]

In reply to Stone's post earlier: if you're showing off using the ground / a tree / the pads as a hold, then it's hardly unanticipated that you might get called out on it.

99% of bouldering isn't rocket science - just do the fucking problem. And if there's any doubt / vagueness about rules, then mention that.

Edit: it's less about sensitivity (fine) and more about idiocy (sorry not too sympathetic to that)

[Dingdong]

I swear this exact same conversation appears every 3 pages on this thread, talk about deja vu 

[Fiend]

And as before this thread is called "Bring Out Your Dabs". It's not called "Bring out your shoddy footwork" nor "Bring out your dubious fashion sense" nor "Bring out your shit tasted in lowball eliminates (okay there might be natural crossover there) nor "Bring out your embarassing power squeaks" nor "Bring out your lanking past the hard moves" nor anything else. It's not a matter of taste nor preference, it's a simple matter of people publicly showing off and claiming they've done a problem when they've not done it and cheated by dabbing (and 99% of the time show no awareness / remorse). If Stone's 5'1" friend has dabbed in the video of her problem, then yes she's dabbed. If she hasn't dabbed and has simply done the problem, then what on earth is she going to get called out for??

[Dingdong]

And as before this thread is called "Bring Out Your Dabs". It's not called "Bring out your shoddy footwork" nor "Bring out your dubious fashion sense" nor "Bring out your shit tasted in lowball eliminates (okay there might be natural crossover there) nor "Bring out your embarassing power squeaks" nor "Bring out your lanking past the hard moves" nor anything else. It's not a matter of taste nor preference, it's a simple matter of people publicly showing off and claiming they've done a problem when they've not done it and cheated by dabbing (and 99% of the time show no awareness / remorse). If Stone's 5'1" friend has dabbed in the video of her problem, then yes she's dabbed. If she hasn't dabbed and has simply done the problem, then what on earth is she going to get called out for??

Maybe for stacking pads to reach the start holds?

[Fiend]

Fuck criticising that. If the problem has set start holds then stack pads to reach those holds in as similar way as a normal height person would be able to. Again surely common sense that a climber will know if they've pulled on halfway through or a move or if they've started in the most "equivalent to average" way.

[stone]

Seems to me if something is say reported as news on UKC, then it can be viewed as a public sporting performance and courteous scrutiny is fine.

If someone posts a video of themselves not really doing a 7B, then all they are really doing is celebrating their enjoyment of the outside. Perhaps if they are a personal friend, tell them where they went wrong next time you see them face to face. If they aren't, then being a merciless online vigilante seems to me like trawling through social media looking for pictures of dogs and babies that you consider to be of merely average appearance and addressing the balance of the comments to that effect. 

[Fiend]

If they aren't, then being a merciless online vigilante seems to me like trawling through social media looking for pictures of dogs and babies that you consider to be of merely average appearance and addressing the balance of the comments to that effect. 

Firstly I don't think anyone is being a merciless online vigilante. It's just general climbing enthusiasts stumbling across dabs in videos and sharing the event. I also doubt if anyone is going to take issue with someone posting a video AS "them not really doing a 7B", if they're clear they're not really doing it...

Secondly that is an unspeakably bad comparison about looking for pictures of dogs and babies: The pictures of dogs and babies aren't claiming they're doing something, they aren't cheating at something, and they certainly aren't actively choosing to be merely average appearance - that all falls under the "things this thread isn't"!!

[stone]

Seems to me the fact that someone has posted the video evidence themselves, undermines your contention that they are wilfully cheating. They have just messed up.

You seem to think that non-cheats have nothing to fear from the scrutiny so all is fine. My guess is that what puts people off posting bouldering videos is the sort of feeling of unease I get when I drive past a police car. I value the job the police do and I don't want to flout the regulations but I know I'm a crap driver. It's the unknown unknowns that make me anxious as I drive past. That is all unavoidable with crap drivers and traffic police. But it is avoidable with timid sensitive types and bouldering videos. Why shouldn't the online world be more a place of welcome and celebration rather than pointless stern scrutiny.

[Fiend]

They've messed up sure. It's kinda obvious when you've messed up. And kinda obvious when you're showing off something you've messed up in. Unless someone gets to almost doing 7B without realising it's about just doing the fucking problem??

And, I'm pretty sure the possibility of a traffic fine or points on your license or even just a bollocking by someone who has genuine power over your life is a lot more concerning than someone sharing a video on here and quipping "the ground isn't in, doh".

P.S. Please reply with something that isn't a highly dubious analogy so I can bow out gracefully, thanks!

[GazM]

But by publicly posting online are they really just 'celebrating their enjoyment of the outside"? I would posit that most people are (maybe subconsciously) looking for people to applaud their efforts. And if that's the case and they didn't actually do what they're asking us to applaud them for, it seems fair to point that out.

[spidermonkey09]

But by publicly posting online are they really just 'celebrating their enjoyment of the outside"? I would posit that most people are (maybe subconsciously) looking for people to applaud their efforts. And if that's the case and they didn't actually do what they're asking us to applaud them for, it seems fair to point that out.

100% this. People posting bouldering videos online want validation to some extent. Which is cool, but it cuts both ways, people aren't obliged to only offer gushing praise!

[stone]

I like watching bouldering videos. It gives me inspiration and I also get technique and beta tips from watching them just as with watching people in real life. People like bouldering along with other friendly people. Looking at each others' videos is like bouldering along with other people. If I felt that a bunch of people were sneering down their noses at me at the crag I wouldn't like it. That is how some people feel the online space has become.

When people say that they don't post videos because they don't want to run the gauntlet of scrutiny are you saying they simply can't be arsed posting them but don't want to appear lazy and so have come up with this convoluted excuse -or what?

[petejh]

100% this. People posting bouldering videos online want validation to some extent. Which is cool, but it cuts both ways, people aren't obliged to only offer gushing praise!

Absolutely brilliant post 

Strong.

[spidermonkey09]

You asked earlier in the thread if I think people should just grow a thicker skin. There is always learning to be done as I said above but ultimately, yes I think that people who are upset about their video, which they posted online for public consumption, having comments on it saying they dabbed when they dabbed, or if they used a hold that isnt allowed or whatever, should grow a thicker skin. As a result we probably aren't going to agree!

I like watching bouldering videos too (apart from those ones with 5 minutes of failure attempts then 10 seconds of them doing it at the end), but I don't like bouldering videos which show problems being done wrong; what good is that to me for beta?

[stone]

The result of all of this sword of truth attitude though is that problems typically just have half a dozen videos of lanky blokes online.

To me that outcome sucks. I'd imagine that to a 5'1" woman it really sucks.

The videos of people doing the problem wrong are I agree no help but the point is they need to be let pass or otherwise a whole cohort of good videos get scared off. If, as people claim, it is so easy to tell a video is of a non-ascent, then it is easy to just ignore such videos.

[abarro81]

I'm with spidermonkey and Fiend on this one.

But mostly I'm just reminded that route climbing is so much better than bouldering 

[Fiend]

Yeah yeah I'm sure a tight rope helping curtail a cut-loose would get on here too 

[Bradders]

The result of all of this sword of truth attitude though is that problems typically just have half a dozen videos of lanky blokes online.

To me that outcome sucks. I'd imagine that to a 5'1" woman it really sucks.

The videos of people doing the problem wrong are I agree no help but the point is they need to be let pass or otherwise a whole cohort of good videos get scared off. If, as people claim, it is so easy to tell a video is of a non-ascent, then it is easy to just ignore such videos.

This is where you lose me. If you give a pass to the videos where the problem is done wrong, especially for eliminates and where using the normally eliminated hold(s) is easier, it is typical for that method to proliferate. I can point you to a few examples if you'd like evidence of that. How do you stop that happening without being able to politely say when someone's done it wrong?

I think the other problem we'll always have here is that posting publicly on social media, especially of the "I did a thing" variety, is inherently boastful. You could easily have a completely private Instagram account with only a handful of close friends you've specifically allowed to follow you, but lots of people don't.

Being boastful is itself inherently self aggrandising, and it's only natural for such actions to be held to a reasonable standard. By saying we should ignore people boasting about things when they haven't even done them to the same standard as everyone else, you're asking us not to care. But I do care. Of course it doesn't matter. But then climbing doesn't matter does it. Except it does.

So as long as the feedback being given is politely and kindly made, I'm very much with SM in saying people need to grow a thicker skin, get it right in the first place, or keep it to themselves.

[stone]

I feel bad about the extent to which I tap into online beta videos versus me not having a phone or camera to reciprocate. It is a mutual public resource much like laying pebbles to extend Moat Buttress or doing stuff to improve access agreements etc.

Ignoring duff videos seems to me no different from ignoring or being polite to people at the crag who are flailing around doing problems all wrong.

UKC lists most problems and lets anyone leave notes clarifying where the problem really goes. By all means do that and post a video of the correct way. That would be a genuine service. But it is also great to have a wide range of people showing various beta and inspiring other people of their shape/age/gender/etc.

[Dingdong]

But by publicly posting online are they really just 'celebrating their enjoyment of the outside"? I would posit that most people are (maybe subconsciously) looking for people to applaud their efforts. And if that's the case and they didn't actually do what they're asking us to applaud them for, it seems fair to point that out.

100% this. People posting bouldering videos online want validation to some extent. Which is cool, but it cuts both ways, people aren't obliged to only offer gushing praise!

Yup, agreed.

[stone]

I totally agree that in an ideal world everyone would have the emotional robustness etc to be completely at ease with reasonable criticism from strangers. You guys all are blessed with that (as I think I am) and that is great.

Sadly though we don't live in that ideal world. None of you are denying that people (typically women) have been put off posting  bouldering videos by the scrutiny culture that has developed. To my mind it doesn't really matter that the blame largely lies with the timidity of those women. What matters is to get the least bad outcome in the circumstances. To me it is a really really bad outcome that such a large and gender biased cohort has been put off.

What is the worst that could happen if a big effort was made to accommodate timid types? You've argued that videos can promulgate out-of-bounds holds and a tolerance of dabbing etc. I suspect that a positive information  source could go a  long way to rectifying any such issue. But even if it ran rife I still don't think it would matter much.

I'm not sure you appreciate how valuable it is to have inspiration from people one personally identifies with as a realistic role model. Speaking for myself, over the years I've tried pretty much all sorts of climbing. I eventually found out that what I most enjoy is sport redpointing. When I was in my 20s I knew and chatted with people who did that. It never occurred to me that it was something I could do though. I thought it was the preserve of elite athletes such as them. I only got involved after I came across dumpy punters who were contentedly sieging midgrade routes into submission. I know some people have the self-belief to strike out regardless but I also know that a huge number of people don't.

I think publicly posted bouldering videos from as wide a selection of people as possible provide an invaluable source of inspiration. Please take that into consideration when balancing that against your motivations for criticising videos of people you don't know.

[Fiend]

Good point. I shall make sure i restrict any criticism or piss-taking about dabbing or otherwise not doing the problem, to videos in which people are dabbing or not doing the problem, and definitely not on videos in which people aren't dabbing and are actually doing the problem.