[User deactivated.]

Personally I would find this unbelievably patronising and would prefer a simple "you've dabbed at 0.34' or whatever, but thats what the issue is really.

That's why I said amend based on experience level for that exact reason.

[Droyd]

whether they're "true" or not... and the latter does matter somewhat in most/many contexts surely?

Truth is a slippery concept in relation to ethics and norms though, isn't it? You and I might agree that a dabbed ascent doesn't count but the only hard 'truth' there is that it doesn't count for you and I; we can lean on the fact that most climbers would agree with us but that still doesn't constitute an objective truth. We agree that the foot hit the pad and that that doesn't meet our standards and that we don't feel that it constitutes a valid ascent, but feelings aren't facts, to paraphrase Pete earlier in the thread/Ben Shapiro.

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you. The only way cheating is a good description of the phenomena we're talking about is if you think that you're competing against others and that the rock is the field of play and grades are trophies that winners get to take home with them, at which point I would say that you're setting yourself up for a bad time and have a fundamentally unhealthy approach to climbing.

And before anyone goes off about how climbing can be a healthy competition between mates - yes, duh. But we're not talking about that, we're talking about seeing complete strangers as competition.

[Johnny Brown]

If it’s just between you and the rock then perhaps it can all be avoided by not uploading videos of yourself to public platforms tagged with accepted names and grades. If you want to share arbitrary variations with your mates use WhatsApp.

[Steve R]

....supply bicep emojis....

We need to consider the use of this emoji as a community.  Regardless of the posting intent, the bicep is seen as a symbol of the patriarchy by marginalised groups and is an image associated with toxic masculinity.  There are also many issues surrounding body image.  On average, across all societies men have a larger bicep circumference (though recent studies contest this) so next time ask yourself; how might this image (and its embedded toxicity) land for the person who posted their video if they're a marginalised female outdoor boulderer?  Or a weak, beta male with skinny arms?  Or a female outdoor boulderer with large biceps? 

[Nutty]

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you. The only way cheating is a good description of the phenomena we're talking about is if you think that you're competing against others and that the rock is the field of play and grades are trophies that winners get to take home with them, at which point I would say that you're setting yourself up for a bad time and have a fundamentally unhealthy approach to climbing.

You don't need a competitor to be able to cheat, you just need rules that can be broken. You can cheat playing Solitaire. You can cheat a Rubix cube like cheque peeling the stickers off. You can cheat at single player video games (up, down, left ,right, A, B, start etc.). You can cheat at climbing boulder problems by not using the defined start holds, using specifically eliminated holds, dabbing, stacking pads more than necessary, climbing an easier variation and claiming to have climbed the harder problem etc. None of these things matter, until you tell somebody else (or the entire Internet) that you've won Solitaire/completed a Rubix cube/climbed a problem. Up to that point, you're only deceiving yourself.

[Bonjoy]

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you.

Non competitive sports also rely on rules. For instance runners wishing to do the Bob Graham are expected to complete within 24 hours, gain all the summits, and start/finish at a defined location. Would you suggest to runners that it would be unacceptable to point out breaches of these rules if clearly visible on a publicly claimed BG?

[SA Chris]

Or that something like this even exists. http://www.marathoninvestigation.com/

[abarro81]

the internet shouldn't be somewhere where people are simply expected to supply bicep emojis or not say anything.

there are no hard rules, there is just intention and impact,

There is not only intention and impact, and there are some hard - and some less hard - rules in the game of climbing. Imagine if no-one had ever told Jerry you weren't allowed to sit on the gear because they were worried about whether he'd be upset

You and I might agree that a dabbed ascent doesn't count but the only hard 'truth' there is that it doesn't count for you and I; we can lean on the fact that most climbers would agree with us but that still doesn't constitute an objective truth.

Leaving aside a philosophical debate about the nature of truth, if it's not clear that dabbing, starting too high, sitting on the bolt etc are not legit then we clearly need more calling people out, not less. Plus what  Bonjoy, Nutty and JB said

[Wellsy]

I meant hard rules re. where something crosses the line from reasonable commentary to piss taking to bullying. Obviously there are rules to climbing, as least as we see it anyway.

Anyway, I think people are a bit mislead if they think that sending perfect strangers a message on Instagram telling them they dabbed on a boulder problem is going to go down well.

[Droyd]

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you.

Non competitive sports also rely on rules. For instance runners wishing to do the Bob Graham are expected to complete within 24 hours, gain all the summits, and start/finish at a defined location. Would you suggest to runners that it would be unacceptable to point out breaches of these rules if clearly visible on a publicly claimed BG?

Based on my hasty googling the Bob Graham has been completed by less than 3000 people who all automatically got membership in an actual club, so while it’s admittedly an arbitrary challenge that someone chooses to take on that has conventions/rules I don’t think the comparison is fair. It seems more similar to 8C or 8C+ -standard bouldering, and I think that we can all agree that at that level scrutiny is to be expected and reasonable (but, as Yetix pointed out, doesn’t always happen - starting off multiple pads in order to reach the start holds doesn't get called into question provided you're climbing 8B). Pretty similar to the Marathon Investigation site, which seems to be going after professionals/sponsored runners winning national-level events rather than average joes.

Scale it down and the equivalent to ClimberDude69's taking the dab in their send footy or sticking an unwarranted plus on the grade in the title would be someone sticking GoPro footage up on YouTube of them cheating in the Scunthorpe half-marathon or even cutting a corner at a park-run - a bit weird and uncool but something that most people wouldn’t challenge because it just doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. And that's assuming that ClimberDude69 decided to lie on purpose rather than just being oblivious.

I was at Bradley Quarry during that lovely crisp cold spell back in December and the slab of the House boulder was totally iced over, but I'd gone there to do Pinch Punch and so had a go. After warming into the moves I had a go and got all the way up to rocking onto the slab, at which point I whacked my heel on a bit of ice and promptly got spat off. I had a quick play on the end and realised that there was no way of doing the problem properly that day, so went home and was happy with what I'd done. I chatted to a couple of people who said that they'd take the tick themselves, but ultimately didn't because I hadn't done the problem as it was originally done, from start to finish. I was happy that I'd got what I wanted out of trying the problem and not bothered about going back specifically to do the same again but with one more easy move to finish, but equally aware that what I'd climbed wasn't actually Pinch Punch. I was there again last weekend and, having done another problem and feeling like I still had plenty of energy, figured I might as well clear up a loose end and do Pinch Punch properly. So I did, and it was nice. It really is a cool problem. Anyway, between those two sessions I saw multiple social-media posts consisting of photos of people on Pinch Punch clearly showing a completely iced-up slab that would have been impossible to rock onto and the standard problem name + green tick, and at no point did I feel compelled to tell those people that they hadn't done Pinch Punch by either my standards or general climbing ones. Instead, I just figured that they'd got what they wanted out of their experience and carried on with my life. This isn't to spray about my climbing or to show what a good little restrained person I am, but because I genuinely don't get why anyone would do any different, in that scenario or any other where the subject of comment is someone's personal climbing which has no bearing on sponsorship or records or anything other than their life and climbing. I watch enough climbing media that I probably see an instance of someone crouch-starting or dabbing or taking an incorrect or spurious grade every few days, and at no point do I feel compelled to do anything more than chuckle to myself, share it with a mate if it's particularly spicy, and carry on with my day. I might think less of them but I do not see a reason to communicate that to them or try and make them think less of themselves, because life is just too short and it's only climbing.

[Will Hunt]

Just popping in to say that people climbing obviously overgraded problems but still taking the grade and propagating it through social media is a far more heinous crime then a cheeky power-shart jet boost off a spotter's face.
The former is very rarely called out and almost always met with protestations when it is.

As you were.

[abarro81]

I meant hard rules re. where something crosses the line from reasonable commentary to piss taking to bullying.

Ah, that makes more sense! I'd just misunderstood what you meant

I genuinely don't get why anyone would do any different

People have told you why - see below. Surely at this point we're just at the stage of agreeing to disagree about whether it's worth pointing these things out, and how worthwhile it is vs the risk of hurt feelings 

"Once a video pops up of someone breaking the rules then everyone copies it. Pointing out the error is the only way to try and address that"
"These days people massively rely on video beta, to the extent that they often don't read the description of the problem. So bad beta propagates and quickly becomes the default beta, especially if it also happens to be easier than doing the actual problem."
"Bad beta videos absolutely do cause others to follow suit"
"With clearer info people could make better judgements about their achievements before contributing to the proliferation of bad beta"
"My problem with not calling it out is the casual erosion of standards that leads to"

[Dingdong]

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you.

Non competitive sports also rely on rules. For instance runners wishing to do the Bob Graham are expected to complete within 24 hours, gain all the summits, and start/finish at a defined location. Would you suggest to runners that it would be unacceptable to point out breaches of these rules if clearly visible on a publicly claimed BG?

Based on my hasty googling the Bob Graham has been completed by less than 3000 people who all automatically got membership in an actual club, so while it’s admittedly an arbitrary challenge that someone chooses to take on that has conventions/rules I don’t think the comparison is fair. It seems more similar to 8C or 8C+ -standard bouldering, and I think that we can all agree that at that level scrutiny is to be expected and reasonable (but, as Yetix pointed out, doesn’t always happen - starting off multiple pads in order to reach the start holds doesn't get called into question provided you're climbing 8B). Pretty similar to the Marathon Investigation site, which seems to be going after professionals/sponsored runners winning national-level events rather than average joes.

Scale it down and the equivalent to ClimberDude69's taking the dab in their send footy or sticking an unwarranted plus on the grade in the title would be someone sticking GoPro footage up on YouTube of them cheating in the Scunthorpe half-marathon or even cutting a corner at a park-run - a bit weird and uncool but something that most people wouldn’t challenge because it just doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. And that's assuming that ClimberDude69 decided to lie on purpose rather than just being oblivious.

I was at Bradley Quarry during that lovely crisp cold spell back in December and the slab of the House boulder was totally iced over, but I'd gone there to do Pinch Punch and so had a go. After warming into the moves I had a go and got all the way up to rocking onto the slab, at which point I whacked my heel on a bit of ice and promptly got spat off. I had a quick play on the end and realised that there was no way of doing the problem properly that day, so went home and was happy with what I'd done. I chatted to a couple of people who said that they'd take the tick themselves, but ultimately didn't because I hadn't done the problem as it was originally done, from start to finish. I was happy that I'd got what I wanted out of trying the problem and not bothered about going back specifically to do the same again but with one more easy move to finish, but equally aware that what I'd climbed wasn't actually Pinch Punch. I was there again last weekend and, having done another problem and feeling like I still had plenty of energy, figured I might as well clear up a loose end and do Pinch Punch properly. So I did, and it was nice. It really is a cool problem. Anyway, between those two sessions I saw multiple social-media posts consisting of photos of people on Pinch Punch clearly showing a completely iced-up slab that would have been impossible to rock onto and the standard problem name + green tick, and at no point did I feel compelled to tell those people that they hadn't done Pinch Punch by either my standards or general climbing ones. Instead, I just figured that they'd got what they wanted out of their experience and carried on with my life. This isn't to spray about my climbing or to show what a good little restrained person I am, but because I genuinely don't get why anyone would do any different, in that scenario or any other where the subject of comment is someone's personal climbing which has no bearing on sponsorship or records or anything other than their life and climbing. I watch enough climbing media that I probably see an instance of someone crouch-starting or dabbing or taking an incorrect or spurious grade every few days, and at no point do I feel compelled to do anything more than chuckle to myself, share it with a mate if it's particularly spicy, and carry on with my day. I might think less of them but I do not see a reason to communicate that to them or try and make them think less of themselves, because life is just too short and it's only climbing.

I still don’t see how this is any different to you going on loads of ukc logs and downgrading stuff. Even established stuff because you’re taller and can reach stuff easier. Essentially since you care very little and got what you wanted out of it why do you feel the need to leave a comment saying something felt 6B instead of 7A (not relating to any particular problem but just meant generally) - to me, again that’s no different than commenting on someone’s video. People use their Instagram as a log book just as much as ukc.

[Wellsy]

Just popping in to say that people climbing obviously overgraded problems but still taking the grade and propagating it through social media is a far more heinous crime then a cheeky power-shart jet boost off a spotter's face.
The former is very rarely called out and almost always met with protestations when it is.

As you were.

Semi related but what grade does The Lark at Cratcliffe get? I can see 6C+ and 7A mentioned around, I thought it felt fine tbh but def harder than The Mermaid which is the closest thing to it I've done in terms of style.

[Bonjoy]

The sport/cheating analogy is crap for the simple reason that 'cheating' is defined as giving yourself an unfair advantage over an opponent in a competitive environment, but rock climbing isn't competitive (in this context, obviously if Janja dabs she's getting pulled down and rightly so). There's no winning or losing relative to other people because 'the game' isn't you against other people, it's you against an inanimate bit of rock that can't be disadvantaged or lose to you.

Non competitive sports also rely on rules. For instance runners wishing to do the Bob Graham are expected to complete within 24 hours, gain all the summits, and start/finish at a defined location. Would you suggest to runners that it would be unacceptable to point out breaches of these rules if clearly visible on a publicly claimed BG?

Based on my hasty googling the Bob Graham has been completed by less than 3000 people who all automatically got membership in an actual club, so while it’s admittedly an arbitrary challenge that someone chooses to take on that has conventions/rules I don’t think the comparison is fair. It seems more similar to 8C or 8C+ -standard bouldering, and I think that we can all agree that at that level scrutiny is to be expected and reasonable (but, as Yetix pointed out, doesn’t always happen - starting off multiple pads in order to reach the start holds doesn't get called into question provided you're climbing 8B). Pretty similar to the Marathon Investigation site, which seems to be going after professionals/sponsored runners winning national-level events rather than average joes.

Scale it down and the equivalent to ClimberDude69's taking the dab in their send footy or sticking an unwarranted plus on the grade in the title would be someone sticking GoPro footage up on YouTube of them cheating in the Scunthorpe half-marathon or even cutting a corner at a park-run - a bit weird and uncool but something that most people wouldn’t challenge because it just doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things. And that's assuming that ClimberDude69 decided to lie on purpose rather than just being oblivious.

I was at Bradley Quarry during that lovely crisp cold spell back in December and the slab of the House boulder was totally iced over, but I'd gone there to do Pinch Punch and so had a go. After warming into the moves I had a go and got all the way up to rocking onto the slab, at which point I whacked my heel on a bit of ice and promptly got spat off. I had a quick play on the end and realised that there was no way of doing the problem properly that day, so went home and was happy with what I'd done. I chatted to a couple of people who said that they'd take the tick themselves, but ultimately didn't because I hadn't done the problem as it was originally done, from start to finish. I was happy that I'd got what I wanted out of trying the problem and not bothered about going back specifically to do the same again but with one more easy move to finish, but equally aware that what I'd climbed wasn't actually Pinch Punch. I was there again last weekend and, having done another problem and feeling like I still had plenty of energy, figured I might as well clear up a loose end and do Pinch Punch properly. So I did, and it was nice. It really is a cool problem. Anyway, between those two sessions I saw multiple social-media posts consisting of photos of people on Pinch Punch clearly showing a completely iced-up slab that would have been impossible to rock onto and the standard problem name + green tick, and at no point did I feel compelled to tell those people that they hadn't done Pinch Punch by either my standards or general climbing ones. Instead, I just figured that they'd got what they wanted out of their experience and carried on with my life. This isn't to spray about my climbing or to show what a good little restrained person I am, but because I genuinely don't get why anyone would do any different, in that scenario or any other where the subject of comment is someone's personal climbing which has no bearing on sponsorship or records or anything other than their life and climbing. I watch enough climbing media that I probably see an instance of someone crouch-starting or dabbing or taking an incorrect or spurious grade every few days, and at no point do I feel compelled to do anything more than chuckle to myself, share it with a mate if it's particularly spicy, and carry on with my day. I might think less of them but I do not see a reason to communicate that to them or try and make them think less of themselves, because life is just too short and it's only climbing.

Isn't it the height of elitism to suggest that only higher level challenges warrant/deserve rules or standards, and that everything beneath is too trivial to bother maintaining standards for? My 12 year old son would disagree with you (did Green Trav (no heels) three times as he dabbed the first two times )

To be clear I wouldn't comment on those Pinch Punch ascents either. But then I'd take it in good faith if I'd posted a vid and someone else did. I only make comments (rarely) where I see a lack of comment leading to some corruption of a problem's definition. Sometimes via DM, sometimes in comment, depends on specifics.

Isn't it double standards to share vids with your mates? How is this better than a well intentioned comment to correct an error? I guess it fits with the idea that intentions don't matter, only outcomes. Kind of ends up with a world full of gossip and innuendo don't you think?

[Wellsy]

Your son is honourable! Gowron approves

[Bonjoy]

  Don't ever let him see you dab Andy. He has an embarrassing habit of shouting dab at people mid 'ascent' outside, not something he's learned off me!

[Wellsy]

Tbh I do that myself, great fun. Especially when everyone says it at once, ensuring the dabber knows they aren't getting away with anything. In all fairness not to random strangers mind you 

[jwi]

I never match on the finishing hold of indoor boulders. Never. This way I ensure that I irritate a few people in the gym on every visit, and as they are too polite to call me out they will quietly fume inside. I learned this simple trick from a mountain guide.

[Fultonius]

I never match on the finishing hold of indoor boulders. Never. This way I ensure that I irritate a few people in the gym on every visit, and as they are too polite to call me out they will quietly fume inside. I learned this simple trick from a mountain guide.

Reminds me of a situation I found myself in a the Glasgow Climbing Centre. I'd just climbed a route that had some whack contrived start but otherwise reasonable climbing. A guy came over to inform me that the route setter, for the sake of argument let's call them "Tilly", intended it to be climbed in the whack way, not my beta-break version. The look on his face when I pointed out that I didn't care what "Tilly" thought I should and shouldn't do was priceless. "but, but Tilly says it must be climbed this way".

 

I hadn't realised this gent was a fully paid up member of the Tilly worshipping sycophants club... (Tilly is not a female, for the avoidance of any hints of misogyny)

[jakaitch]

I never match on the finishing hold of indoor boulders. Never. This way I ensure that I irritate a few people in the gym on every visit, and as they are too polite to call me out they will quietly fume inside. I learned this simple trick from a mountain guide.

A true hero

[steveri]

I never match on the finishing hold of indoor boulders. Never. This way I ensure that I irritate a few people in the gym on every visit…

Working on a problem indoors with another bloke.
Me: not taking the full tick, my foot brushed the mat
Him: [confused look]

[tommytwotone]

Working a problem that overlapped with another one which had a slopey / balancey crux final match.

Bloke gets to the top, one hand on the top hold, thumb in bolt hole, falls off matching, taps hold with other had as he falls off.

Bloke: F*** it I'm taking that
Me: You'll get that next time
Bloke: Confused look

[Dac]

I never match on the finishing hold of indoor boulders. Never. This way I ensure that I irritate a few people in the gym on every visit, and as they are too polite to call me out they will quietly fume inside. I learned this simple trick from a mountain guide.

May I suggest adding to your reportore with:

The occasional cheeky finger in T-nut bolt hole on balancey or slabby problems.

On problems with contorted first moves; get established on the wall using any old holds, then bring one’s hands to lightly dab the start holds prior to continuing. (This one always seems to boil my piss, and I really shouldn’t care).

Indoor climbing is fast becoming another separate world, the following was overheard last spring at a local boulder competition:

A problem traversed 30 or so feet of steep slab, many people are watching and waiting their turns, a chap begins climbing: around his waste is a chalk bag. A voice in the crowd is heard to say ‘oh that’s a good idea, it’s a little chalk bucket you can carry with you for if your hands get sweaty.’
Looks were exchanged in the crowd.

[Will Hunt]

Indoor climbers are culturally appropriating rock climbing.