[lagerstarfish]

Poetry: where does one start?

(not books, I know)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qp7q

http://www.poetryarchive.org/

[Will Hunt]

I was going to say "Four Quartets" too, but its not exactly an easy route in (not that Roethke is much better).

Hmmm. These are not, perhaps, an obvious starting point then? I don't want the first collection that I try to be the last.
For context, the only book of poems I own is Old Possum's Book of Practical Cats... That's the level we're at here.

[SA Chris]

What type? Anything? Classical? Modern?

http://www.englishverse.com/

Some amazing online resources.

Possibly needs a separate thread.

[moose]

The North Water by Ian McGuire - a disgraced surgeon on a whaling voyage gone horribly wrong: icebergs, buggery, and bears.  Maybe not great literature but very visceral and entertaining.  If you are in the centre of the Cormac MacCarthy, Moby Dick and Patrick O'Brian lovers Venn Diagram it's well worth a read.  Some ludicrously overripe descriptions but all part of the blood-soaked fun... "less is bore" as Versace said... a taster that sticks in the memory:

He drops his britches in front of them and stands there grinnning. The captain's cabin fills with the stink of stale urine and potted meat".

[jwi]

Poetry: where does one start?

Goethe, Li Bai or Sapho. IMHO.

In english Emily Dickinson maybe.

[DaveC]

Some other recent fiction I've been into:
The Sellout by Paul Beatty. Last year's Man Booker Prize winner about one man's attempt to bring  racial segregation to a black district of L.A....the irony being he is black. The satire is biting,  the humour can be LOL funny, the writing itself is excellent. I enjoyed this book quite a lot! 👍


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[DaveC]

Two Gentlemen on the Beach by Michael Kohlmeier.  The story of a fictional friendship between two famous depressives - Winston Churchill and Charlie Chaplin - by an Austrian author no less! Tells how a chance meeting on a beach in America leads to talks about how they deal with their "black dog" days while meeting in places across America, Britain,  France and Germany in the 1920s and 30s.  An interesting idea really well executed and I think well translated,  the English prose is excellent. If you're looking for something different and/or the main characters are of interest then this is definitely worthwhile.

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[andy popp]

The Sellout by Paul Beatty.

Have this sat on the bookshelf.

A round up from the last couple of months. Both 'Canada' and 'Let Me Be Frank With you' by Richard Ford. LMBFWY is the last of the Frank Bascombe novels. I love these so much, I could happily read a new one every year for the rest of my life. 'Americanah' by Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie, much feted novel on the African immigrant experience in the US. I enjoyed it but didn't think the prose outstanding and the ending disappointed. 'All the Pretty Horses,' Cormac McCarthy. I struggled at first - I get that he has this reputation as a consummate prose stylist, but too often I felt he was simply trying too hard and I couldn't always get past that. In the end I fell under the spell of the landscapes and I will get round to reading the other two in the trilogy. 'Go Tell it On the Mountain,' James Baldwin. Baldwin's first novel and the first I've read by him. I loved the first half describing the life of young boy's life in Harlem, luminous and vivid prose. But the second half sags badly before rallying again at the end. I need to read some of his more mature work. 'The End of Days,' by Jenny Erpenbeck. The same character dies at five different times across the C20th, first as a young baby and finally as a 90 year old woman. Similar devices have been used by others I'm sure, but Erpenbeck does great work with it and the book builds in poignancy as details, events and experiences accrete.

Most fun has been 'John Aubrey: My Own Life' by Ruth Scurr, a biography of the C17th antiquarian, scientist and general man about time. Scurr has used scraps and fragments of Aubrey's own writings to piece together the diary he never actually wrote. A fascinating dive into a world both familiar and deeply, deeply strange. Its also full of a fantastic cast of characters.

Finally, despite what I said on the Trump thread, I tore through 'Hillbilly Elegy' by J.D. Vance. I'm glad I did and I can see why it has a wide appeal - he tells his story (which has some extraordinary moments) in a direct and vivid way. But he wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to unpick a desperately dysfunctional culture - that of white Appalachian hillbillies - that causes great misery to many people but in the end he can't help himself from celebrating, despite knowing all the damage it does. The whole thing is riddled with contradictions that he doesn't quite have the courage to confront. The last third is also one of the biggest humble brags ever. I'd still recommend it and it does give some clues as to how America got where it finds itself in 2017.

[DaveC]

Andy,  the Cormac McCarthy trilogy is well worth it. I read them one after the other last year.  Exhausting to read like them that but as you say,  his landscapes are quite something.  I have "No Country for Old Men" on the shelf to read at some point.

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[andy popp]

Finally, despite what I said on the Trump thread, I tore through 'Hillbilly Elegy' by J.D. Vance. I'm glad I did and I can see why it has a wide appeal - he tells his story (which has some extraordinary moments) in a direct and vivid way. But he wants to have his cake and eat it. He wants to unpick a desperately dysfunctional culture - that of white Appalachian hillbillies - that causes great misery to many people but in the end he can't help himself from celebrating, despite knowing all the damage it does. The whole thing is riddled with contradictions that he doesn't quite have the courage to confront. The last third is also one of the biggest humble brags ever. I'd still recommend it and it does give some clues as to how America got where it finds itself in 2017.

I read this book a few months ago and would agree with all you say. I also felt that he overstated the possibility for social mobility from his peer group, perhaps to give the "humble brag" about his glorious military 'n' law school career more impact. He mentions quite few relatives in brief asides who seemed to be doing fine in a dull middle-class way, and thus not really fit with his central narrative. But the book is worth reading.

This article pretty much perfectly captures the Hillbilly culture (or its effects) Vance's book is about. Vickie Conley, the grandmother in the article, could be Vance's beloved "Mamaw." - https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/may/17/drugs-opiod-addiction-epidemic-portsmouth-ohio

[duncan]

A few years ago I also read "Battle Hymn of The Tiger Mother" by Amy Chua, the law professor at Yale who egged JD Vance on to write his book. The two books would actually work quite well as a boxed-set, representing the the two polar extremes of modern parenting (and how both can potentially fuck kids up).

Tiger parenting doesn't achieve the tiger parent's goals either (correlational but it's the best we've got). 

"Supportive parenting was the most common style and linked to the best developmental outcomes and highest grade point averages for the children."

[DaveC]

A few recent reads I'd recommend:
1. The Kite Runner by Khaled Hosseini. A beautiful book about love and sin and sacrifice and redemption.
2. More Die of Heartbreak by Saul Bellow.  Interesting,  amusing in places, a look at quirky relationships in  Jewish-American bourgeois family.  I like Bellow's writing but this is perhaps not one of his better books. 
3. Imperium by Ryszard Kapuscinski. Legendary Polish writer and journalist recounts tales of his travels in the Soviet Union from his early days in the 60s through to the post-Soviet 90s.  Excellent and enlightening,  rare first hand accounts of getting around in the later years of the USSR and in it's immediate aftermath. 

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[DaveC]

Also,  The Scandinavians,  by Robert Ferguson, a British writer long resident in Norway. A highly readable look at the people and culture of the lands across the North Sea. 

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[Falling Down]

Some recent reads.

The Lonely City - Olivia Laing: An extended essay on loneliness taking in Edward Hopper, Warhol, Valerie Solanas and her own time spent in New York.  Good if these kind of discursive musings are your bag.

The Utopia of Rules - David Graeber: Anthropologist, prof. at LSE, occupy movement activist Graeber writes well on the tyranny of bureaucracy, technology and the role of state violence.  Its a great thought provoking read but our Neo-anarchist doesn't offer up many solutions and it ends abruptly.

Aeschylus - Prometheus Bound: The Titan who stole the fire of the gods as a gift to mankind is banished by Zeus, chained to a rock and visited by various figures and Gods.

Attrib - Eley Williams: 17 very short stories in the first person.  All quite mysterious, poetic and tender.  Really good.

Desperation Road: Michael Farris Smith. Deep south short crime novel.  A guy jailed for killing someone in a road accident returns home determined to stay out of trouble.  Guess what? he doesn't.  Enjoyed this one in one sitting on a flight.

Hunters and Collectors - M. Suddain.  I've started this twice now but not persevered but it's supposed to be great.  An renowned intergalactic gastronomist runs into trouble in a mysterious hotel.  Anyone else read it?  I'll try again on hols.

A few psychology and psychotherapy books for my training.  Fascinating.

 Going on hols next week and plan to read some Lee Child Jack Reacher novels on the beach.

[Brannock]

Dark Sun, Richard Rhodes, sequel to The Making of the Atomic Bomb, covering Soviet Espionage of the Manhattan Project, development of the hydrogen bomb and politicking between Teller and Oppenheimer. A great slice of early cold war history, as good as The Making of.

Tender is the Night, F Scott Ftizgerald, darker and better than The Great Gatsby.

Solzhenitsyn

One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich, the classic of Gulag literature, sparsely written and tightly focused.

Cancer Ward, found this a bit of a struggle in places, quite meandering, worthwhile in the end.

August 1914, less well known than the other two but I though it was very good, unlike the other two not based on Solzhenitsyn personal experiences and maybe better for it, still has an extraordinary grasp of detail and evocative descriptions.

[tomtom]

Solzhenitsyn

One day in the life of Ivan Denisovich, the classic of Gulag literature, sparsely written and tightly focused.

Cancer Ward, found this a bit of a struggle in places, quite meandering, worthwhile in the end.

Yes - Cancer ward is much less well known that One day... but equally bleak in its own way...

[Rocksteady]

Have been away from this for a while. Some thoughts on recent reads:

Re-read the whole Malazan Book of the Fallen 10-book fantasy series by Steven Erikson. The writing can be a bit turgid at times and the author has a tendency to put his own thoughts into the mouths of characters, so you get the same viewpoints echoed by characters of different ages, races and even species. But the scale and scope of the story is absolutely epic and the world totally absorbing. So many different characters and perspectives to follow, characters seem bad in one book then you see them from a different perspective in another and they seem good - very interesting. Sometimes the unrelenting violence, brutality and senselessness gets a bit much. But overall a properly impressive achievement in the fantasy genre.

My Brilliant Friend by Elena Ferrante. I heard quite a bit of hype about this and the missus recommended it. I didn't like it. Was well-written at times and I liked the setting in post-war Naples but it had that sense of overwrought introspection that I dislike in some of Karamazov's work but with a lot less grandeur. The actual action in the book seems completely trivial. Not my sort of thing, I won't read the rest of the series.

Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. Erm. I think this actually could have been quite good if it was about one fifth as long. But it basically seems a shrill, vituperative rant against Communism and Marxist/Socialist academic thought, and functions as an enormously long novelised apologia for Capitalism. I think Ayn Rand is actually not a bad writer and characterises well, but she just rants the whole time. I actually have some sympathy with the 'one man alone against society' principles behind her writing, and think she expresses this well, but you get the idea of this book after about 100 pages. I read it all to see if it developed. It doesn't really. Can't recommend it.

Poldark series by Winston Graham. I am about half way through these books and enjoying them a lot. Characters are beautifully realised and the authenticity of the setting and language used seems spot on. Love the descriptions of Cornwall through the seasons and years. It's basically a soap but with a bit more action. In terms of historical novels it's not Patrick O'Brian or George MacDonald Fraser good but it's very good.

[DaveC]

I think there should be a special prize for anyone that can get through Atlas Shrugged.

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[andy popp]

I think there should be a special prize for anyone that can get through Atlas Shrugged.

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Exactly my thoughts. I feel like I should read it (not least as I've taught Rand) but I've never been able to face it.

[Oldmanmatt]

I think there should be a special prize for anyone that can get through Atlas Shrugged.

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There is.

For whoever receives her royalties...


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[Rocksteady]

I think there should be a special prize for anyone that can get through Atlas Shrugged.

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Exactly my thoughts. I feel like I should read it (not least as I've taught Rand) but I've never been able to face it.

It did require significant perseverance. I actually quite enjoyed 'The Fountainhead' when I read it a few years ago. But Atlas Shrugged was pretty frustrating.

Always seems to do quite well on 'books you should read' lists (at least on American ones) but I wouldn't recommend that anyone read it really. A York notes 50 page version should do the job.

[jwi]

I thought only americans had to read Rand?

[lagerstarfish]

Robert J Sawyer's book Watch was a nice change from all the tat I've been reading - like a William Gibson book, but written after the internet actually existed

[DaveC]

I've been on a mission to read everything I can this year,  some has been good,  some not so much.  Anyway,  here are my favourites of late:

The Ten Thousand Things - John Spurling,  a beautiful novel set at the fall of Mongol Chinaand the rise of the Ming Dynasty
House of Names -Colm Toibin. A novelised version of the story of Clytemnestra, the death of Agamemnon and it's aftermath in Toibin's gorgeous prose.
The Harafish - Naguib Mahfouz. A micro-epic about life in a Cairo alley across generations.
Deep South - Paul Theroux. The best travel book on the American south I have read.
Welcome to the Monkey House / Palm Sunday - Kurt Vonnegut.  Short stories and essays from one of America's finest writers.
The Kite Runner - Khaled Hosseini.  A powerful story of two boys from 70s Afghanistan and their fate over following decades. 
Savage Detectives - Roberto Bolano. A modern classic from Latin America. The complex story of an obscure school of poets and their eventual fate broken up by a long globetrotting search for two of the schools leaders.  Took me a while to get into this but it hooked me eventually. 

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[andy popp]

I haven't posted it here for an age and probably won't now remember everything I've read in the meantime. However, I have just finished Paul Beatty's The Sellout (2016 Booker Prize winner). A short precis would be "African American attempts to reintroduce slavery and segregation to the LA ghetto neighbourhood he lives in." But that doesn't even come close. This perhaps the most (brilliantly) our of order book I've ever read. Pretty much every page has something that leaves you thinking "Did he really just say that?" Its outrageously funny and also deadly serious. Outstanding satire.