[erm, sam]

I think its a bit tight comparing Friction to Vice. Obviously Vice is of slightly higher quality than Friction, but erm, how long has it been running? how much money does it make in terms of advertising? how many journalism students are desperate to intern/write for it.?.. ETC ETC.
Go produce a magazine, and then tell me how somebody elses effort could be improved.

[saltbeef]

well, yeah vice has been out about 3 years but it looked the same as it does now, and was probably funnier. I did qualify it by saying that its better than climber/climb/ote. surely they can get a bit more news even if its just been plaigarised from websites. i am psyched for friction though.

[erm, sam]

I think the key problem for Friction is that it is quite  difficult to  write interesting climbing magazines. Climbing is just not that interesting. We are all familiar of the tedium of Chriss Craggs or whoever writing about the last random crag they visiited. Also, we are sickt to death of gear reviews talking about gear that we don't want to buy that month. It takes a good writer to cover wider aspects of climbing and with respect, even the good ones eg Grimer or Andy K have a style that one becomes used to after a few months. Novelty is all important.
One of the strengths of websites over magazines etc is that you can direct the content to exactly that which interests you at at given time. However, even if you sifted through a months forums I am not convinced you would get enough really "interesting" stuff to create a good article.
The problem is that nowadays there are the immediate response media where the very cut and thrust of info gaining is interesting (forums), and there is the remembered novelty of the magazines one would read when new to the sport...
So all in all, I think a magazine like friction is never going to be as good as one would like, because lets be honest what is?

I thought simple things like the sequence photos in Friction were an interesting development. Not in the sense of giving Beta, but picking up on the movement aspect and offering a fuller picture of a problem. This technique has obviously been used in Snowboarding magazines a lot, so it not new, but neverthe less a welcome development for climbing mags.
As long as a magazine is trying out new things, writers, design, subject matter, it has to be better than those who have the same subjects by the same people at the same page numbers month in month out.
Go Friction. I have worked myself into a lather.

[dave]

I have worked myself into a lather.

Now rinse, and repeat. Always repeat.

[Pantontino]

Shit, maybe I'm the new Chris Craggs, or maybe Percy Bishton is?

I actually like regular columnists in any magazine or paper that I read. Some you don't like/ignore, but others you turn to straight away. It is dependable, and okay, in some issues that particular writer is off the boil, but other times they are producing good stuff.  

Editors like this sort of arrangement, because it makes their lives easier. Imagine sourcing an entirely new set of writers/photographers every month - a nice idea, but in reality you could only do it if you had lots of time (and money).
erm, sam - you are clearly unhappy with this type of set up (fair enough, I'm sorry if I, or any of the other regulars out there have bored you over the years); perhaps a halfway house would be better, i.e. shorter runs of regular columns - say a 4-6 month slot, then a change to someone else?

The feature articles do need to be adventurous and high quality - this is of course easier to nurture with long lead in times and commissions given to key writers and photographers. I reckon UK mags get this right a fair amount of the time, but as with all things, could do better.

Friction could fill the 'youth of today' vacuum that OTE has left, but it needs to make some smart decisions to get there (assuming that is the goal?). Starting the magazine was a fantastic effort, and I have total respect for anybody who gets off their arse and actually starts doing something creative (whether thats a mag, a website, a film, a guidebook, whatever) instead of just whingeing. Lets hope they get it right.

People do need to recognise that they are never going to get a mag that totally fits their taste unless they produce it themselves. I never read the comp pages in any mag, but it doesn't bother me (that much) that they are there, because I know that somebody else will like it. Commercial climbing magazines have to appeal to a broad audience or else they will go bust. The only set ups who can really do what they want are small fanzines, or oddities such as Alpinist which is supplemented by a millionaire dot.commer.

As for the repro issue - I could point to similar problems in High and OTE (and obviously Friction - but they are allowed to have cheapskate production values at this stage in the game). I haven't had a proper look at the new Climb mag yet, but I'm sure it's not perfect.

[dave]

Shit, maybe I'm the new Chris Craggs, or maybe Percy Bishton is?

I actually like regular columnists in any magazine or paper that I read. Some you don't like/ignore, but others you turn to straight away. It is dependable, and okay, in some issues that particular writer is off the boil, but other times they are producing good stuff.  

Editors like this sort of arrangement, because it makes their lives easier. Imagine sourcing an entirely new set of writers/photographers every month - a nice idea, but in reality you could only do it if you had lots of time (and money).
erm, sam - you are clearly unhappy with this type of set up (fair enough, I'm sorry if I, or any of the other regulars out there have bored you over the years); perhaps a halfway house would be better, i.e. shorter runs of regular columns - say a 4-6 month slot, then a change to someone else?

I don't want to get up anyones backs, but that type of article really turns me off. I know its hard for people doing mags and shit to get articles, but those "we went to XXXX crag this month" things just smacks of formulaic "lowest common denominator" type of thing. From the readers point of view it comes across as lazy, thought i appreciate that its not the intention, adn that getting mag articles is harder and harder these days. Plus if I'm reading about a particular crag or place I'd rather read it by someone who is a local activist, or somone with some kind of affinity with the place. For example I'm sure people would much rather read a porth Ysgo article written by yourself, rather then someone like me or cofe or some londoner turing up, taking a few photos all on the same day of some over-exposed pretty boys in primary colours and then rewording a few guidebook descriptions.

I don't mean to be harsh there to you guys that write that kinda article, but when i first started buying climbing mags, about OTE 74, i used to buy it every month or every other month for about 3 years and we didn't used to get that type of article. I used to like opening a mag and not knowing what you were going to get. You'd get a grimer one-pager every month about soemthing quirky, youd get a pritchard article in older issues, the ones that finally went into Deep Play. You'd get one about the lastest grit ascents, what seb had done, grimers thing about grit styles,  jacky godoffe's font articles, yuji hiryama on salathe, even mick ryan's "alternative hueco" one,  exposes with john dunne etc etc etc And the questions were a bit more probing than "whats your favourite type of music".

Sorry to say it but the aforementioned formulaic articles are half the reason i don't buy OTE anymore - and i know i'm not the only one. I don't want to offend anyone here, cos i know it takes effort to go and do these things, but thats just the way i see it at the moment. I blame the editors.

[Pantontino]

Dave, I don't mind criticism at all. I'd prefer to know if people thought Stone Circles was a lame duck, as long as they can explain why they think it should be changed/dropped etc.

Since SC started I have tweaked the approach considerably - I started off 18 months ago just writing mini guides (I don't think I've ever merely re-worded a guide book description though!), but these days I've shifted the focus to the more interesting problems and historical background of the crag and how it was developed.

We do try and involve local climbers in the photo shoots (which rarely end up taking place all on one day), but this isn't always possible as many decisions to 'go' are made right at the last minute.

As for the OTE 'how to' series, surely this fits your presciption as it uses a different local expert each month. Adam Hocking at the Bowderstone, Greg Chapman on Angel Deelite...etc. all about as local and expert as you can get, yet I've seen that repeatedly slagged in online discussions.

Flicking through the first copy of Friction I noticed the photographer Tim Glasby's piece on Newstones etc - surely this is exactly the type of article you say that you dislike?

[dave]

To be fair I have to say i stopped buying the mags long before your bone circles thing started, so probably never sat down and read one through, just skimmed through in the library, so I'm probably being a bit unfair, but then again the instant appeal from skim-reading is what sells mags, so maybe not!

Believe me the glasby things in friction have not escaped attention - lets be fair at the moment we've only seen 2 articles so far, but if the next 2 issues i see another paint-by numbers "this week we took neil, meilee and heason to baslow/wimberry/insertcragname" then i will be dissapointed, unless the rest of the mag is absolutley blinging. And yea the first glasby newstones thing was littereally like soemone readinding the statter problems from the guidebook.

I think with the OTE how to climb...thing they were always going to be open to a lot of stick regarless of the quality of the writing, simply by the very nature of the subject adn that they were trying to set in stone something that even in the most specific cases was going to be hugely variable between different people, and also not forgetting the fact it can be construed as honeypotting certain problems. Also combined with the fact they were in the middle of a shit mag didn't help - I'm sure if we wound back 7 years and put those articles in OTE 80 with climbers of the day i'm sure they'd have gone down a treat.

I was slightly confused/amused that for DWR they'd got dalvinder to do it, i.e. the very short persons beta, giving it 7b, and the to cap it all it said "next week, Tiredrop, 7a" also made me laugh out loud in the library. If you're going to do them articles you at least need to use the average grade and get an average sized climber to do them, or its useless for the majority of climbers. You an I know grades are taken with a pinch of salt, but not everyone knows that.

[grimer]

I must say, two things strike me in regards to people on here criticising magazines. Well, three things actually. One is that it is probably very hard to produce any sort of mag, kinda like what simon said about having a lot of respect for anyone who actually gets off their ass and does something. From this respect, no matter what you think of friction, at least it's out there.

The other is as people often say, if you don't like it, do better. Even on here, it is obvious that there are a few people with something to say and who know how to say it. Cofe, Dave, Neil K spring to mind. Why don't they at least send off something to a mag, or do it in such a way that it will get printed, ie phone them up and speak to them.

The third thing, the most amazing thing, is how come editors who are probably quite well paid to do their job, don't look through these sites, and contact the people who can obviously write? As I said, here, even on Rockfax, you can soon identify the interesting voices. Why not just email them (you) and ask them to write something?

[saltbeef]

ok here's an example of a great issue of ote. no 43. news at the beginning. this has a section from england, then news from rotpunkt, desnivel and alp all with photos of people cranking. hard. we want inspiration as well as seeing stuff we can aspire to we wanna see the cutting edge.
then we've got an article on fashion by ken wilson, with a cartoon that adds rather than detracts from it(duncan bourne your cartoons are appaling!).
an article on ian vickers, good pictures, wha hes climbed, year by year comp results etc. a photo article by greg epperson.  all good inspiring photos not all of desperates but really good photos without some masive text overlay.
a bit of a story about being injured by stuart cameron but at the end getting better and cranking hard again. again it makes you wanna go climbing.
a bit on training by gresham, but one thats not just like do this but explains the principles behind it.
 then a couple of articles on tyrol and freyr all with awesome photos. and people climbing hard 8b+ and stuff, these routes look good, a 5+limestone slab with a fat guy on it does not.
some bumf about comps and new stuff, then the back passage something that used to be a great read, that unfortunately became "we went to tremadog and got rained on when we climbed a vs.then had a bacon sandwich..."
Si your bit in climber is good keep going with it, but i'm not gonna pay 3.10 for four pages of a magazine.
ps i don't feel i have to produce a magazine to be able to criticise one.

[dave]

I must say, two things strike me in regards to people on here criticising magazines. Well, three things actually. One is that it is probably very hard to produce any sort of mag, kinda like what simon said about having a lot of respect for anyone who actually gets off their ass and does something. From this respect, no matter what you think of friction, at least it's out there.

word grimer - i've tried to say something to this effect above, but probably not as articulate. However as a consumer we all have the right to complain in an innefectual semi-anonymous manner on the web.

The other is as people often say, if you don't like it, do better. Even on here, it is obvious that there are a few people with something to say and who know how to say it. Cofe, Dave, Neil K spring to mind. Why don't they at least send off something to a mag, or do it in such a way that it will get printed, ie phone them up and speak to them.

word  - believe me the minute i think of something worth writing i'll send summert in.  problem is being an opinionated loudmounth with slack internet access at work doesn't equal having any creative ability when it comes to that kind of thing. Its not like i've not thought about it a fair bit either. Although i can say that the stories you hear about of people not getting photos sent back (admittedly not a problem with digital, do they take digital?) and not getting paid for articels in OTE etc doesn't exactly filla  homie with glee.

having said all that, I'm sure any of us could wipe our arse on a sheet of A4 adn that woud be a better read than a JCT article, so get wiping lads.

[Johnny Brown]

This thread of OTE used to be good is a regular thing that crops up, and generally I agree, but I can't help wondering whether its us rather than the mags that change.
When you're sixteen and living in the sticks you'll lap up anything. Anyone in the mags is a hero and whatever they say is worth reading.
After living in Sheffield for a few years its a bit different - you've met the 'heroes' and generally been dissapointed It's not their fault - you put them on a pedastal. As soon as you find out they're overweight forty-summats writing to subsidize their holidays you stop buying the mags. By this point you know where you like to climb, and what you want to wear - you've outgrown them.
I've found this in a few mags, not just climbing. No magazine has ever maintained the interest over more than three years. It's cos they can't change with you

[dave]

dude, thats deep.

[erm, sam]

In reply to Pantonitonioto, I was being unoriginal in focussing on teh CCrags style of same-people-different-place-articles, but overall I was also hoping to show how one can never be satisfied. One months excelent new column, is six months laterers same old same old.
Anyway, I was being lazy by lumping all columnist in the same boat. I recognise that some are different. I think that you have already shown to be attempting to plough a more interesting furrow, by changing  the emphasis of your Stone Circles column over its lifetime.
Grimer I maybe should have said that even when one likes a particular coloumnist eg yourself or AK, when they are the sole light in a magazine, you (the reader) depend on them for too much.
It is obviously rediculous to want an editor to find all new writers everymonth. I hope I was discussing how the modern seen it all,-been buying mags for-10 years- types will always be underexcited by almost any efforts.
One sports magazine which really stands out for me is Four Four Two. They really manage to find different stories and issues every month.  However, I am sure their market is a billion or a zillion times bigger than that of any Climbing magazine

At the end of the day, people who make an effort are to be commended. If you don't think it is good enough, offer your help. Write that article, find those pics, blah blah

[erm, sam]

And even the Vice Dos and Don'ts are a bid boring these days.

[erm, sam]

Sorry, got a blocked nose

[saltbeef]

erm, sam that illustrates your point of something fresh 6 months down the line becoming stale. ps doesn't doylo look tough in this months climber...
erm, johnny i read what your saying but i still suggest that a selection of good photos and people climbing hard will get you psyched; thats what the last couple of years of ote seemed completely devoid of...

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah but who do you still have enough respect for to get you psyched?
Now that you know they are actually quite boring/ had worked the route to death/ posed the photo / are covered in logos for brands you now know are lame?
I bet the list is a lot shorter than it was back when ote was ace?

[dave]

johnny got a point - its probably the posed/logo-covered photos that sucked the psyche out of mag photos for me. Photos of ben heason on a jug on a hard route in pristine metolius gear just don't do anything for me.

For example, what was the most psyche-inducing:

• The photo of seb on meshuga, first ascent (not the posed Hard Grit cover one)
• The photo of the Gresh on the same route, plus about two dozen logos.

[cofe]

the gresh one is quite good cos you pair it with the article - from memory quite a good piece. not a good example.

exemplified better by the umpteen gresh shots on some forgotten-instantly DWS/greek sport route. unnecessary.

logo shit half the time just isn't real. what's the answer.

[Johnny Brown]

Yeah those genuine first ascent shots are always good, but I'm sure plenty of those old shots were posed too. You were just too young and innocent to know. Not that I'm defendin them - posed photos are my pet hate

[dave]

the gresh one is quite good cos you pair it with the article - from memory quite a good piece. not a good example.

exemplified better by the umpteen gresh shots on some forgotten-instantly DWS/greek sport route. unnecessary.

true - maybe you can take it up with him when you are busting some 7a+s with the man himself down the old franchards this easter. Extreme.  :wink:

[cofe]

he's better than his photo-legacy that's all.

[AndyR]

what's the answer.

What's the question?

[cofe]

what's the answer.

What's the question?

i couldn't agree more Andy, i couldn't agree more.