[Simon S]

I've recently developed medial epicondylitis.Its not too bad and only aches slightly the day after training or after physical work.What sort of stretches/exercises and/or time off has everyone found to be suitable for treatment of this? I've tried forearm rotations and wrist curls but these just seem to make it worse :roll:

[cofe]

probably need to rest it first. if it still hurts then rest til it doesn't before curls or stretching. if its recent you could ice for a bit. seems to help. don't take the above as SCIENCE.

[fatneck]

Firm, regular massage with the thumb right where it hurts always seems to help. The Cofester is right about rest, although I would reccomend interspersing this with light training as total rest can sometimes do more damage than good IMHO...
God luck!

[fatneck]

Or good luck even...

[cofe]

good point about the massage - me julie has some neutrogena water based moisturiser which helps for the deep massage. cue inuendo.
if you do light training avoid things which hurt. obviously.
second fat neck on the good luck vibe n'all.

[fatneck]

I've only got one fat neck though.....?

[r-man]

From what I've discovered since being plagued by tendon injuries, there's tendonitis and tendonisis.

Tendonitis mean your tendons are inflamed (anything wih itis on the end denotes inflammation). This is what most people get, as it is the first stage of elbow problems. Luckily if this is all you've got, it can be fixed quite easily with the following:

1. As has been suggested, massage is good and breaks down scar tissue which stops the tendon from healing properly and makes it prone to reinjury.

2. Applying ice a few times every day keeps the inflammation down. use a thin plastic bag or a cloth. don't apply the ice directly onto the skin.

3. Stretch at least three times per day. For golfer's elbow (on the inside) hold your arm straight and pull back your fingers using your other arm. Count to 15. For tennis elbow (on the outside) hold the injured arm straight, with the palm facing outwards. Put the other arm over the top and interlink fingers. Pull back the fingers on the injured arm - you should feel the top of the forearm being stretched. Count to 15. It's good to do both stretches, whatever your injury.

4. DON'T CLIMB. Your tendon needs time to heal. If you only have tendonitis, it should recover in 2-3 weeks. Everyone I know who has rested as soon as having syptoms has recovered quickly. If you don't rest, you could end up with tendonisis.

5.But other excersise is good, as it increases the blood flow and thus the speed nutrients reach the affected area. Hence it increases the speed of healing.

Tendonisis. Tendons stretched and damaged. I'm currently discovering that this can take a very long time to heal. (2-3 months from most things I've read). I wish I'd taken time off sooner. All this nonsense about climbing carefully is bollocks as far as my experience goes. It just brings you back to square one.

So there you go. I aint a doctor, but I have had elbow problems for tooo long, and the above is more or less everything worth knowing that I've discovered through research and experience.  Hope you get better soon.

[Paz]

I'm impressed you know the name and it might not have been the same but when my elbow's hurt I rested them for a bit, as you do, and then started sitting up straight at work.  Sounds really stupid (like really stupid when you think how much the physio costs) but it went away (I'd say the advice worked but it might have worked just like the pamphlet he gave me worked magically well at warding away dragons).  I also stopped lapping problems on the minute for endurance after the onetime I tried that, it was murder for them.  

I would also say 'do more trad climbing' and watch how you coil your ropes, but I could probably say that for every injury thread and it wouldn't help there either.  

And my mate would probably also say top avoid elbow pain don't arm wrestle big blokes who want to know how strong you climbers are, when drunk at posh parties, even though he won!

[dave]

anyone know owt speciific about occaisional dull ache where the tricep meets the elbow, like if you pinch the down-pointing elbow bone with your rigthhand, your right thumb is probably sat in that little divot where the tricep ends, and that divot is where i get some gyp.

[cofe]

I rested them for a bit, as you do, and then started sitting up straight at work.

i'm seeing an osteopath paz and altering my posture is one of the three things he's told me to do. bad posture from inflexible/tight shoulder, inflexible/tight shoulder=inability to absorb shock/stress through body. next weakest point on body=elbow.

the big test will be when i try climbing inside regularly again. also some other stuff but not relevant here.

anyone know owt speciific about occaisional dull ache where the tricep meets the elbow

probably weak triceps. apparently mine are very weak hence the need to do press ups amongst other things.

[dave]

yeah thats what i figured, so doing loadza tricep shit. probably also accounts for me being wack on slopers.

[webbo]

as i've mentioned lots of time on here.get the book pain free,there's ex's for elbows,backs,necks,knees.the only thing it don't cover is fingers and wrists.
i got this book on the advice of a mate who's doctor mate recommended it.my osteopath who i see every 6 weeks or so for a check up,says they are running courses for physio's and osteopaths on this treatment.
doing the ex's is a pain you do them first thing in a morning so you have to get up half an hour earlier and some of them are hard if your a stiff old git like myself.i'm pretty convinced they work.

[r-man]

get the book pain free

I've got it. All very interesting stuff about making sure the body is aligned properly, as pain can be referred from other areas, knock on effects of bad posture etc. And it all makes sense. If this is your problem then this book would be a great way to save money on osteopaths or physios (although I'm sure osteopaths and physios wouldn't recommend it as a complete substitute )

But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure most climbing injuries ARE due to climbing, ie. you put too much stress on a tendon - you damage the tendon. Surely no amount of body posture realignment is going to be any better than resting the tendon and making sure it heals properly.

I think the problem climbers generally have is that they find giving it a rest pretty difficult, which is why so many people you meet have niggling injuries that never seem to improve.

My elbow was feeling better a couple of weeks ago. No pain when I stretched. No pain when I did the pressing-down-with-a-bent-arm test. No pain when I pressed the back of my head (for some reason that brings it on the strongest). I knew it wasn't 100 percent better, but I thought, I'll just try climbing gently on it, use a support strap and everything. Maybe it'll even help to do a little excersise with it. Did it bollocks. It's now starting to improve once more, but if only I hadn't pushed my luck I could have been nearly ready to climb again...

[webbo]

get the book pain free

But on the other hand, I'm pretty sure most climbing injuries ARE due to climbing, ie. you put too much stress on a tendon - you damage the tendon. Surely no amount of body posture realignment is going to be any better than resting the tendon and making sure it heals properly.

if you read what the author say's that as human apes we are designed to climb,run, jump, crawl etc.as i've mentioned on this thread before.i had physio on my elbow[golfer's]then was advisedf to have an injection.i had one from my g.p. with no effect what so ever.i was then reffered to an orthepedic consultant who gave another injection after getting me to where a brace for 3 months.all no effect.
addmittedly i never stopped climbing for more than 2 week's.
i then started using the ex's on the book and my elbow improved.i still get twinges from time to time so i start the specif elbow ex's again and then get an improvement.
it might be all psychological but if it work's so what.

[r-man]

if you read what the author say's that as human apes we are designed to climb,run, jump, crawl etc.

Yes, but I think he says that as an example of what we should be doing, contrasting rather than exemplifying how the life we live is artificial and damaging to our bodies. If you read the section on elbow pain, it's mostly about how people cause problems by restricting the use of their arms. Steering wheels, computer games, dinner table manners etc. all confine our range of movement so that the elbow and wrist are doing all the work. Ideally we should be using the shoulder as well.

So the reason I was sceptical that the excersises would work for most climbing injuries is that I assumed climbers generally have a good range of motion in their shoulders and hence any injuries would be caused by climbing as opposed to movement dysfunction. Having said that, I can see how postural problems could easily affect climbers.

And the excersises are definitely worth a try. They certainly aren't going to do any harm and at 7 or 8 quid (for the book) are a helluva lot cheaper than physios or oesteopaths. I have to admit I haven't tried them, as they seem so gentle and boring and take up about 45min every day - maybe I will try them and stop being so sceptical. It's got to be worth a go.

Here's the book, for anyone interested, all sorts of excersises for all sorts of pain...

[Simon S]

Thanks for all the info guys. I'll defo get that book 'pain free'.

[webbo]

So the reason I was sceptical that the excersises would work for most climbing injuries is that I assumed climbers generally have a good range of motion in their shoulders and hence any injuries would be caused by climbing as opposed to movement dysfunction. Having said that, I can see how postural problems could easily affect climbers.

if you read the chapter on sports injuries.re gymnasts,he writes that having a hyper mobile joint can lead to problem's.

my understanding of the whole concept is that the ex's re engage your body in to what it's supposed to do i.e.due to most of the western world spending massive amounts of time sitting,how many of us can squat down with your heels on the floor and hold this position for any length of time.yet this is a natural postion for people in the third world.

[r-man]

how many of us can squat down with your heels on the floor and hold this position for any length of time

Yeah, I just tried that, it's surprsingly tricky...

Anyway, I decided to give the e-cises a go. Did you do the ones in the elbow section or the ones in the gymnastic section?

I tried the ones in the elbow section. Was wondering, how often did you do the dangling arm and circling weights thing? It says sets of thirty for each arm. Surely not thirty times the 20 circles?

And the supine groin stretch didn't seem to do much - though I did give up after 10min on each leg cos I was getting bored.

[webbo]

i did the ones in the elbow section,i tended to alternate with the back ex's.i.e. do one lot one day and the others the next.with the dumbell circles 2 sets each arm 30 one way then 30 the other.i've never done more than 10 mins on the supine groin stretch.
the biggest problem is the ex's take time and are boring as shit,plus you don't seem to be working the injured area.
currently i'm doing the shoulder ones as i was getting some strange twinges.before that i was doing the maintaince ones plus the ones from the gymnastics section.

apparently you can go on line and they will do a diagnosis via down loaded photo's.set you some ex's and review your progress.the mate who reccomended the book did this with success.