[Stu Littlefair]

This is a public service announcement,

Yesterday, persons un-named, ripped the top hold off the joker. An enormous piece of rock came off. And no, it wasn't me.

The person in question is going to try and glue  the hold back on, so if you can all be a bit careful with it for the next few weeks.....

[Bonjoy]

Shit the bed. Damp rock = weak rock I guess. Is said un-named person considering dieting now?

[Nigel]

Ha ha! Be reet, get it glued back on. Pantontino, you'd better tell Katz  :?

[Pantontino]

I think CJD will be crying into his Cocopops as well.

Anyway, it might be a better problem now, has anyone thought about that?

[Stu Littlefair]

I was quite keen not to see the hold glued back on, so everyone would have to use jerry's original sequence. It has left a big, ugly, useless sidepull though.  Large holds you can't use might be considered a minor negative point....?

[Sloper]

Just for the record (and with my record for pulling off bits of grit it needs saying) NOT GUILTY

[jimbo]

With the jokers classic status and difficuly and would have thought scouse D was the prime suspect, especially with his track record.

Guilty Dave ?

[Scouse D]

Wasn't me Guvnor. Saying that, I'd probably pull the crimps off...

[dave]

crimps? its not rubicon out there kids.

[cofe]

somebody better tell steve then, i wondered why he was muttering "...bigger tail..." when he was trying it. he's at raven tor today trying the joker.

[Andy Harris]

Not sure if it was Steve Fearne or not. But if it was the hold couldn't be in etter hands. He's an antique restorer of high esteem and given the quality of some of his masterpieces at Rubicon (most don't realise they're glued) the Joker would be in safe hands. If it's not him then maybe someone should procure his services.

Let's not make it a John Hart job!

[james]

Leave it off.  The problem is still completely possible and more original in a strange sort of way.  The jokers crown has been restored.  It can once again hold its head up high as a hard boulder problem, safe in the knowledge that no "easy method" can be used.

[c.j.d.]

If it's a fucked up mess, glue it on, if not, leave it - the problems pretty odd any way unl;ess you r on the Ace I guess, but if it looks shite, then the problem will be totally shit really.  The Joker is the same grade either way - its a trick thang innit.

[clm]

Anyone got a photo of the damage?

[fatboySlimfast]

Its back on, was there this aftie

[c.j.d.]

Thank fuck for that!

[a dense loner]

it's a F***in good job well done whoever glued it back. by that i mean the quality of the workmanship is second to none :up:

[Johnny Brown]

Not sure I can agree with that. I mean its not a mess, but holds with grey sika lines round them belong at rubicon.

[dave]

i for one would love to see that joker hold at rubicon, would really add some variety. If anyone wants to sika it in the gap between top of bigger tail and kudos then I say go for it.

[Mr.Fontainebleau!]

Leave it off.  The problem is still completely possible and more original in a strange sort of way.  The jokers crown has been restored.  It can once again hold its head up high as a hard boulder problem, safe in the knowledge that no "easy method" can be used.

 :D I agree, whats happened has happened ! LEave it off, glueing looks shit, problems evolve with time, thats nature!

[Percy B]

Not the best glue job I've ever seen, and this is grit we're talking about - not some pile of horrible limestone choss. If grit breaks, it breaks and we try to reclimb the line with what evers left. The jug at the top of The Ace/Joker was never bombproof, and it was a fairly sure bet that at some point it would come off. The problem will still go without, but it may be a little harder to stick the top. Why not accept the challenge, rather than make an un-natural mess of it. As it is, the jug still looks like it will come off again in the near future due to its shape and the nature of the grit on this boulder (ie: coarse and slightly friable). As and when this happens, I reckon it should stay off and we should endevour to climb the new problem rather than start messing about with glue.

And whilst I'm not saying the current repair is a horror show (it could be a lot worse), I do think that more effort could have been made to make the repair look better instead of using Sika (a nasty light grey colour) to stick the thing back on. In the past grit repairs have been made using resin which is colourless and can be mixed with a little ground up grit so it goes the same colour as the surrounding rock. If the present jug breaks again, a large patch of grey sika will be left behind which will probably be more ugly than a natural rock scar.

[Doylo]

i agree it probably should have been left off. We should just be grateful that grit is generally so solid, almost every problem in Bishop has lost a hold at some point or another.

[Danny]

I'd say it would have been better to leave it off.
Although my opinion is worth sod all considering I'm not a peak based climber and I wouldn't even get close to climbing said problem...

Peak ethics

[Paz]

Jug?  Have I completely imagined the fact that the top of the joker was a flat `top of the crag' ledge at the top of the crag?  The one that JM's hand comes off of in Stick it then he tags it with t'other.

[dave]

as you can see in this photo, the top righthand hold is actually like the top of a  flake thing, think this is whats come adrift.

[ned]

i think its keep your left foot on the big hold, and rock up left like moffat does in hard grit...but i dont know.

[a dense loner]

well i stood about 20 feet from it last week n it looked ok from there. may be unsightly stood underneath though. at the end of the day it doesn't really matter what people say on the interweb tho

[clm]

voice of reason

[Jim]

whoever did it also glued the donkey lines back on it  

[Fiend]

For those who haven't seen it (i.e. me):



Might get a placeholder image if PF are being gay, hopefully works though.

[clm]

thats pretty fuckin ropey.  doesnt even look like itll hold body weight.
is there a groove along the line of the sika that could be filled with grit coloured resin?

[dave]

looks fairly solid in real life, or at least as solid as its going to get.

[a dense loner]

arrgh my eyes... that does look pretty bad but you can't tell from a bit away

[cowboyhat]

luckily that photo makes it look as bad as it actually is. And it is bad. really really shit. I have waited until i saw it myself to comment and now i'm just confused.

when i first heard the hold had broke i thought; damn, nevermind it will make for an interesting repeat. No doubt it will eventually be done as its such a classic line.
then comes all the talk of glueing it back on. conjecture i think. before i can even get down the wall to gossip i learn its been glued back on, while i was at work. you boys up there in sheffield have clearly got too much time on your hands. (could have been used for training for the first broken hold ascent of the joker...?)

I just want to know why?

Am i really ignorant? is there a precedent for glueing holds back on grit? the ethics are of course, this is climbing, grey. everyone knows that what is ok at Raven tor is not at the plantation. Yes people have used bolts in the past, even poff on grit. but I just don't get this. grit is friable, these things happen. please explain to me when and/or why it became the form to glue holds back on to classic lines at classic areas of classic gritstone crags?

And then once we've established that, everyone must concede that it looks shit, even if you believe it to be ethically sound.  when the flake on partian shot comes off will that get the same treatment?

[Fiend]

I think you've got a good point there cowboyhat, about this sneaking rapidly onto the grit with only climbonline.co.uk raising any complaints about it...

I dunno about hold gluing but I think this one is definitely an issue.

[dave]

I don't think it looks that bad, and at least you're not left with an unusable sandy mess which may well have eroded away in the future. the only really issue is like stu sez if it breaks off again cos the rock ain't strong enough to hold the glue.

anyway its not like there are no glued holds on grit. for example the undercut on mushin, the back of the pocket on small smart, and i'm sure those flakes on that boulder at the upper tier are glued.

ironically there probably more of a case for glueing holds back o grit than there is on limestone, as the new uncovered rock you'd be left with on grit is generally much more unstalbe than what you get on limestone. I mean what happens when the undercut on the nose snaps off, or the big flake on the green traverse, or that flake on the trackside boulder? is it better to climb on a fast-eroding sandy mess?

[cowboyhat]

ok dave, you´re making a case. much of this is about the wider issue of conservation under the weight of the exponential popularity of bouldering. Maybe this and similar issues came up with regards to limestone in the eighties...

and if so where is it leading...
as fiend said thngs sneak rapidly.

don´t use the mushin undercut as an example though. i´ve always hated it. looks like it was done by a keen plasterer who had formerly worked on the hoover dam.

apply question marks where relevent. my gay computer types fi instead.

[cofe]

the back of the pocket on small smart

when did the pocket snap off?

the rock is only sandy by experience, i.e. if you touch it. you don't pull on sandy holds generally cos they're rubbish so the defunct joker hold wouldn't have been used. was gluing the way - i doubt it. likewise the various flakes due to snap off - people will climb around them if they do. its too late now anyway - hopefully there will be a discussion (somewhere - bmc?, here?) about what to do next time.

[cowboyhat]

the back of the pocket on small smart

when did the pocket snap off?

the rock is only sandy by experience, i.e. if you touch it. you don't pull on sandy holds generally cos they're rubbish so the defunct joker hold wouldn't have been used. was gluing the way - i doubt it. likewise the various flakes due to snap off - people will climb around them if they do. its too late now anyway - hopefully there will be a discussion (somewhere - bmc?, here?) about what to do next time.

"hopefully there will be a discussion (somewhere - bmc?, here?) about what to do next time."
I can't work out this quote mechanism.
anyway. yes thats kind of what i wanted. maybe people are bored of this topic? should i start a new thread...?

[Johnny Brown]

I'm not sure that the BMC haven't got bigger fish to fry.

previous discussions have covered how to repair fast eroding footholds (vienna, Robin Hoods Stride)
Gluing of holds back on hasn't really been covered. I suspect it will always depend on the individual hold, i.e how vital is it? Will the glue be visible/ ugly? Obviously lime will always be less controversial as its falling apart anyway.

Personally I think in most cases the problem should be left to 'settle', i'e let peeps try and repeat it for a while, as in font following the chipping. In most cases I think it will just require a sequence refinement.
If they are to be glued back on then it should be done by someone who knows what they are doing.

[Mr.Burns]

Anyone know if its been tried since the hold was glued back? and is it going to be easier, harder or the same?

[cofe]

now i'm confused. do they have bigger fish not to fry or not? or indeed aren't you sure whether they have bigger fish to fry? next you'll be telling me there are unknown unknowns...

[dave]

if the ace/joker was at cuvier they'd have probably chipped a new top hold by now!

[cowboyhat]

ah, the 'if'.

[Johnny Brown]

The BMC have some very big fish, but no oil.