[peterbeal]

Overdue reverse engineering of Lattice?

https://wmgclimbing.wordpress.com/2024/03/10/approximating-lattices-finger-strength-data-set/

"The Final Finger-Strength Chart
To summarize: from V14 to V17 there are 4% increases in the one-arm pull data from Lattice. There are 6% increases for two-arm hangs in the V4-V11 range according to the Finger Strength Vs Climbing Ability video. I am assuming a 5% increase per grade from V11-V14.

Putting it all together, we get the following chart:

V4 — 49%
V5 — 55%
V6 — 61%
V7 — 67%
V8 — 73%
V9 — 79%
V10 — 85%
V11 — 91%
V12 — 96%
V13 — 101%
V14 — 106%
V15 — 110%
V16 — 114%
V17 — 118%

Note: These numbers represent the maximum value (percentage of body weight) achieved in a one-arm pull on a 20mm edge within 7-10 seconds, which is the protocol discussed in the Finger Strength Vs Climbing Ability video (7 seconds) and Emil’s and Stefano’s videos (10s). In my experience, the maximum peak happens in the first 3-5 seconds (assuming one ramps up effort slowly), so in my opinion a shorter test might be totally fine: it is the peak force we are interested in measuring.

Once again I’ll mention that these numbers are pulled from male climbers because that was the data available."

[teestub]

In my experience, the maximum peak happens in the first 3-5 seconds (assuming one ramps up effort slowly), so in my opinion a shorter test might be totally fine: it is the peak force we are interested in measuring.

Not sure about this bit, the test is measuring force over a set time, not peak force right? There’s a substantial difference in what I can hang for 5 secs vs 10!

[Wellsy]

Always nice to know you should be able to climb about 7C+

[Mostly_Inanimate_Beans]

Always nice to know that you apparently can't climb 6B

[Fiend]

Always nice to know you have no idea what these measurements mean, have never done a Lattice test, nor knowingly chased a grade this millenium.

[remus]

Pretty slap dash work, doesn't even take account of gender differences included in the models. Might as well go straight to the source which is free anyway https://latticetraining.com/product/my-fingers/

[abarro81]

That person must be very bored

[petejh]

8B fingers, I’ll take the win.

#nevertrain

[rodma]

That just tells me I'm crappy at climbing, or, just perhaps that climbing might be slightly more nuanced than that.

Would Alison Vest not be sitting at V26 (or more) if you extrapolate the data. Does that make her worse at climbing than me. So many questions, so much data, so many training aids to sell. Wait, sell merch too. Only joshing, those videos of theirs have really helped with my mobility.

I honestly can't be doing with the stats at all, other than being inspired (mostly by Alison) that perhaps I could improve my own stats to improve what I am currently capable of (as in have tried something, have tried breaking the beta, good rests, good skin, what's missing, mobility, fingers, specific grip type).

[User deactivated.]

Just to make the same point as every time this comes up: what about mindset, tactics, flexibility, coordination, strength in other muscles, style of climbing, finger strength on different edge sizes, rock type, indoors or outdoors, skin condition, etc.

There's a correlation, but when there are V6 climbers who can hang one arm with added weight and V6 climbers who can't hang with two arms at bodyweight, it's clearly not worth caring about. Almost all climbers who want to improve should be trying to get stronger fingers but people can still climb V14 with alleged V7 finger strength.

[User deactivated.]

Would Alison Vest not be sitting at V26 (or more) if you extrapolate the data. Does that make her worse at climbing than me.

On that video where she apparently breaks the world record (which appears to be considerably lower numbers than what Yves Gravelle did years ago?), it shows that she can barely lock off on one arm on a bar. I'd imagine this would make pulling strength a considerable weak link in the chain and probably the opposite problem that most male climbers have (more pulling strength than finger strength). She's still obviously a great climber.

[36chambers]

Would Alison Vest not be sitting at V26 (or more) if you extrapolate the data. Does that make her worse at climbing than me.

She's a serial finger nester, which in my experience adds upwards of 10% weight on a given edge, so expanding on the OP results I think she's probably closer to V24 than V26

[rodma]

Would Alison Vest not be sitting at V26 (or more) if you extrapolate the data. Does that make her worse at climbing than me.

On that video where she apparently breaks the world record (which appears to be considerably lower numbers than what Yves Gravelle did years ago?), it shows that she can barely lock off on one arm on a bar. I'd imagine this would make pulling strength a considerable weak link in the chain and probably the opposite problem that most male climbers have (more pulling strength than finger strength). She's still obviously a great climber.

Yeah, I know, that's the point I was poorly making

I'm definitely not like most male climbers, I have more finger strength than pulling strength, apparently v16/17 according to some datasets 

[rodma]

Would Alison Vest not be sitting at V26 (or more) if you extrapolate the data. Does that make her worse at climbing than me.

She's a serial finger nester, which in my experience adds upwards of 10% weight on a given edge, so expanding on the OP results I think she's probably closer to V24 than V26

Ace, good work. To be fair I also get a lot out of nestling, I'm weak as a kitten when I test high angle grip strength. I was alright at it 15 years ago, but that was, erm, 15 years ago

[jwi]

That is quite useless. Slightly less useless model here: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/ (where at least everyting is properly sourced and explained).

I would like to take this oppurtunity to rant a bit about using test-results from non-climbing exercises to evaluate training. I do not think that anyone should do this. I think it is a bit useless and more likely to be harmful than benificial.

Isolation exercise benchmarking is mostluy useless. It is possible to get stronger fingers and getting better at doing hard single moves on fingery holds without getting better results on hangboarding. One of these matters, the other not.

I know several climbers who still judge a training period a failure if they don't increase the strength on deadhangs on a single specific hold that they already are overspecialised on, even when they have clearly gotten better at bouldering. And it is surprisingly hard to convince them otherwise. When I point out that they did harder boulders across multiple styles at the end of the period then at the start they still whine and have anxieties about their test scores on one very specific deadhang exercise and claim that this is "objective" and that grades are "subjective".

Same for powerendurance. Foot on campusing is a great isolation exercise, as is repeaters. But your scores on those exercises are not important, especially if you have done the exercises a lot over the years. If you can climb harder routes is interesting, or more laps of routes/boulders of a certain grade.

Grades, with all their flawes are a much better way to objectively measure and evaluate physical progress in a way that is relevant for climbing than isolation exercises. Especially if evaluating climbing performance over a number of climbs to average out individual variation.

That is also a reason clients should demand fair grades with narrow grade bands in their training facilities.

[Wellsy]

Just to make the same point as every time this comes up: what about mindset, tactics, flexibility, coordination, strength in other muscles, style of climbing, finger strength on different edge sizes, rock type, indoors or outdoors, skin condition, etc.

There's a correlation, but when there are V6 climbers who can hang one arm with added weight and V6 climbers who can't hang with two arms at bodyweight, it's clearly not worth caring about. Almost all climbers who want to improve should be trying to get stronger fingers but people can still climb V14 with alleged V7 finger strength.

I think this is absolutely right. I've hung for the right hand 4 seconds on a 20mm, straight armed, and 3 seconds on the left. Take off 10% bodyweight and I have def hit both for 7-10 seconds. 7B feels almost impossible for me outdoors, so I think it's fair to say that finger strength is a mere small piece of the puzzle.

In fact I'd go so far as to say the entire physical strength area is just a small piece. Technique is bigger, but I honestly think try-hard/confidence/boldness is a bigger deal. I could have the strongest fingers in the world, and I'll probably never ever do crescent arete, I'm just too scared of heights.

[jwi]

I would like to take this oppurtunity to rant a bit about using test-results from non-climbing exercises to evaluate training....

More ranting:

Even worse, a friend of mine hired a mac-coach to help him do a sport climbing project. On the physical test he scored a bit meh on pullups, because he had not done them much the last few years, but he can still always bang out a few one-armers after a few weeks of relarning the skill. For doing his 8b+ project the mac-coach gave him a program including a ton of pullups, because his test scores were slightly below what they should be for 8b+! My friend understood that the combination of having a very physical job and adding tons of pullup training on top of this would in best case eat in to his recovery but most likely lead to tendonitis. No amount of talking sense to the coach helped: his scores on pullups were below average for his size and grade, so they needed to go up. Because test-scores on isolation exercises were more important to this coach than reality. My friend is fortunately not a complete idiot so ignored the program even though he payed for the initial consultation and the program up-front.

[User deactivated.]

That is quite useless. Slightly less useless model here: https://strengthclimbing.com/finger-strength-analyzer/ (where at least everyting is properly sourced and explained).

I would like to take this oppurtunity to rant a bit about using test-results from non-climbing exercises to evaluate training. I do not think that anyone should do this. I think it is a bit useless and more likely to be harmful than benificial.

Isolation exercise benchmarking is mostluy useless. It is possible to get stronger fingers and getting better at doing hard single moves on fingery holds without getting better results on hangboarding. One of these matters, the other not.

I know several climbers who still judge a training period a failure if they don't increase the strength on deadhangs on a single specific hold that they already are overspecialised on, even when they have clearly gotten better at bouldering. And it is surprisingly hard to convince them otherwise. When I point out that they did harder boulders across multiple styles at the end of the period then at the start they still whine and have anxieties about their test scores on one very specific deadhang exercise and claim that this is "objective" and that grades are "subjective".

Same for powerendurance. Foot on campusing is a great isolation exercise, as is repeaters. But your scores on those exercises are not important, especially if you have done the exercises a lot over the years. If you can climb harder routes is interesting, or more laps of routes/boulders of a certain grade.

Grades, with all their flawes are a much better way to objectively measure and evaluate physical progress in a way that is relevant for climbing than isolation exercises. Especially if evaluating climbing performance over a number of climbs to average out individual variation.

That is also a reason clients should demand fair grades with narrow grade bands in their training facilities.

This is essential reading for every climber who wants to get better.

[T_B]

David Mason has done more fingerboarding than most (according to his recent Careless Torque podcast) and seemed to be suggesting that finger strength is 95% genetic. Might be anecdotal but presumably he’s basing that view on the experience of having coached a lot of climbers. My takeaway was that deadhanging might not be a good use of my time as someone with ‘weakish’ fingers and 35 years training history.

[Duncan campbell]

From what I’ve heard from the Lattice people and I guess if you think about the anecdotal evidence you hear I can believe it… presumably he says training will make some difference?

But you do hear of/meet people who are just insanely strong off the bat. People who are beginner climbers that can hang rediculous amounts having never fingerboarded before.

[User deactivated.]

I could have the strongest fingers in the world, and I'll probably never ever do crescent arete, I'm just too scared of heights.

You should make Crescent Arete one of your short to mid term goals. You CAN do it and it will bring on your climbing more than anything in the weight/fingerboard room could at this stage. I'd even suggest finding a few slightly more difficult highballs to do afterwards. Upon returning to normal height boulders, you should move a lot more freely once you're a couple of moves off the ground. Just be safe and use plenty of pads/spotters.

David Mason has done more fingerboarding than most (according to his recent Careless Torque podcast) and seemed to be suggesting that finger strength is 95% genetic. Might be anecdotal but presumably he’s basing that view on the experience of having coached a lot of climbers. My takeaway was that deadhanging might not be a good use of my time as someone with ‘weakish’ fingers and 35 years training history.

I'm keen to listen to this. I spent 5 years doing typical max hang and repeater blocks and made modest progress for the first year or two then very little progress for a few years. I thought i'd reached my 'genetic potential'. However, over the last year I haven't done any traditional hangs, but using a Tindeq and specific on-the-wall-training, I've made more finger strength gains than I did in the previous 4 years combined. I still have less finger strength than some of my mates who have never touched a fingerboard, so it's abundantly clear that there's a huge genetic component to finger strength, but 95% is a bold statement!

[Fiend]

I could have the strongest fingers in the world, and I'll probably never ever do crescent arete, I'm just too scared of heights.

You should make Crescent Arete one of your short to mid term goals. You CAN do it and it will bring on your climbing more than anything in the weight/fingerboard room could at this stage. I'd even suggest finding a few slightly more difficult highballs to do afterwards. Upon returning to normal height boulders, you should move a lot more freely once you're a couple of moves off the ground. Just be safe and use plenty of pads/spotters.

8A+ board beast LH98 coaching 7A+ board beast / 7C+ underperformer Wellsy up Crescent Arete is essential reading for every climber who wants to get better 

[jwi]

95% is a higher estimate of heredity of grip strength then what is usually found in the literature. The upper estimate based on tests on twins is 65%.

I don't think that should be an excuse for not trying to get stronger fingers. But people who have a really hard time gaining finger strength should reflect if the currently most popular methods are the best for them.

For example, the heritability of grip strength was estimated between 30 and 50% in several early studies.26,27,28 In older twins, genetic factors accounted for 65% of the variance in grip strength even after adjusting for body weight, height and age.29 More recently, twin studies have revealed heritability values for muscle strength phenotypes ranging 30–85% depending on the conditions of the strength measure (for example, limb, contraction angle, velocity and type).23,29,30,31,32,33

[Wellsy]

I could have the strongest fingers in the world, and I'll probably never ever do crescent arete, I'm just too scared of heights.

You should make Crescent Arete one of your short to mid term goals. You CAN do it and it will bring on your climbing more than anything in the weight/fingerboard room could at this stage. I'd even suggest finding a few slightly more difficult highballs to do afterwards. Upon returning to normal height boulders, you should move a lot more freely once you're a couple of moves off the ground. Just be safe and use plenty of pads/spotters.

David Mason has done more fingerboarding than most (according to his recent Careless Torque podcast) and seemed to be suggesting that finger strength is 95% genetic. Might be anecdotal but presumably he’s basing that view on the experience of having coached a lot of climbers. My takeaway was that deadhanging might not be a good use of my time as someone with ‘weakish’ fingers and 35 years training history.

I'm keen to listen to this. I spent 5 years doing typical max hang and repeater blocks and made modest progress for the first year or two then very little progress for a few years. I thought i'd reached my 'genetic potential'. However, over the last year I haven't done any traditional hangs, but using a Tindeq and specific on-the-wall-training, I've made more finger strength gains than I did in the previous 4 years combined. I still have less finger strength than some of my mates who have never touched a fingerboard, so it's abundantly clear that there's a huge genetic component to finger strength, but 95% is a bold statement!

I know I should work on my head game, and it's probably the majority of what is holding me back, but it's in all fairness hard and unpleasant to do. It felt like it was getting better until I fell and badly injured my knee and since then its been very variable, from okay ish to bad to occasionally v bad. I worked a bit with a sports psychologist and I found that tbh it didn't seem to be helping me.

Realistically I need to go and start doing 4s, 5a, 6As etc that are high and get my head in a bouldering position. I suppose I feel rather depressed and intimated by it all more than anything. I'm not excited by the idea of going out and shitting myself on Crescent Arete and backing off and going home feeling like shit, although I probably do need to go and do that and at least try to push through it.

[Droyd]

A lot of 'should' and 'need' in your post there Wellsy, but if climbing is a part of your life where enjoyment is the most important aspect, neither should come into it with regard to doing or not doing certain problems, styles, or disciplines. Maybe that's a bit simplistic - if you completely lose it the second you get off the ground then you might 'need' to work on some things if you do want to climb but don't want to hate every second - but that's clearly not the case here. I think the result of bouldering having developed out of trad and other forms of climbing is that 'danger = cool' is still somewhere in the DNA of the pursuit - a 6/7/8/9A highball with death potential is always held up as somehow 'better' than a bum-scraping traverse of the same grade. But even though it might be consensus, it's still subjective, and having called Mountain Rescue for someone who fell off Crescent Arete at the wrong moment, I would strongly advise against beating yourself up for not wanting to subject yourself to risk, or even not wanting to jeopardise your enjoyment of climbing.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as condescending; I feel like I've said and thought similar things in the past, and put too much stock in what other people think climbing 'should' be and not spent enough time doing what I actually enjoy. I guess all I'm saying is you do you.

[SA Chris]

Also (to me anyway) doing higher and easy and being "up there" on easy climbing does more for your head than doing low hard stuff and hoping to progress to high harder stuff. Just get out and do mileage on easy microroutes / highballs does wonders. Easier to do coming from a trad background though.

[User deactivated.]

I know I should work on my head game, and it's probably the majority of what is holding me back, but it's in all fairness hard and unpleasant to do. It felt like it was getting better until I fell and badly injured my knee and since then its been very variable, from okay ish to bad to occasionally v bad. I worked a bit with a sports psychologist and I found that tbh it didn't seem to be helping me.

Realistically I need to go and start doing 4s, 5a, 6As etc that are high and get my head in a bouldering position. I suppose I feel rather depressed and intimated by it all more than anything. I'm not excited by the idea of going out and shitting myself on Crescent Arete and backing off and going home feeling like shit, although I probably do need to go and do that and at least try to push through it.

Sounds like a team pad party is needed with loads of psyche and some healthy peer pressure. It's actually really fun once you get into the swing of it! Happy to throw a few pads down if it ever stops raining! I think the ideal boulder is moderately big, with multiple lines that aren't a total path and a flat landing (e.g. the Calf, Ilkley). That ensures taking plenty of lobs and learning that falling isn't so bad.

Regarding Droyd's accident report: with correctly placed pads and a spotter, the likelihood of breaking bones on Crescent Arete should be vanishingly small for a fit and healthy person. Freak accidents can occur, but you can step off a curb and break your leg too. Highballing has actually taught me to be safer. I know how and when to fall, usually put more effort into arranging pads correctly, and I prepare correctly (e.g. ensuring holds are clean, working moves off a ladder/rope, etc.).

[Wellsy]

I'm definitely open to getting out of my comfort zone and plan to do so this year but honestly I feel like at the moment something like that would be really stressful and make me just want to walk away more, not less!

Doing Crescent Arete isn't something I particularly desire but doing less high/sketch things but potentially more high than I am now with an eye towards performing better would be what I want. I could happily go my entire life never getting on, say, Pebble Arete but I'd build towards it if it meant getting to do things I do actually want to do, like T-Crack and so on.

[mrjonathanr]

if you're uncomfortable above a certain height you won't be getting much experience of being up there and volume moving vertically.

Have you considered grabbing a rope and leading a ton of easy routes? Stanage VS challenge style?

[Wellsy]

Never done anything on a rope tbh! Might help you're right

[Wellsy]

I would also say, not to drive the thread off course, but it's not like I don't love bouldering and haven't had some amazing experiences doing it. And last year was probably when I did my favourite climbs (The Lark, Rasta and Blind Bat) and if I spent my entire bouldering career doing stuff like that I'd be loving it. I'd just like to maybe do the 7B/+ versions in the near-ish future.

[Moo]

For what it's worth wells my lass had a problem with her head game when climbing outside. She used to get freaked out in an illogical phobia kind of way just a few feet off the deck despite climbing perfectly happily at height indoors.

What sorted her out was doing a shed load of volume on easy font circuits ( ideal place to do it ). Literally trying to knock off 30-40 yellow or blue problems a day for a week was massively beneficial. I think it was just an increase in exposure to being on rock at a comfortable level which did the trick. We do a font circuit trip every year now, it's a great holiday and you do a massive amount of climbing. Don't worry about the level or the grades just go and do as much easy climbing as you can. The other thing with it is to try and climb each problem as well as you can, don't just try and drag yourself up stuff, stand on the feet, find your balance etc it can be quite the humbling experience but if you make it the focus of the trip it can be massively rewarding.

[SA Chris]

For what it's worth wells my lass had a problem with her head game when climbing outside. She used to get freaked out in an illogical phobia kind of way just a few feet off the deck despite climbing perfectly happily at height indoors.

My daughter is the same. Happily lead a 15m or so 5+ indoors, but freaks out 5 m up a Diff outdoors on toprope. Maybe a Font family holiday is in order...

[Wellsy]

Went to font last year for a couple of trips and definitely found it helped a lot yeah, it just ebbed over winter as the bloody rain kept me from getting on rock!

[stone]

I sometimes wonder whether some people who have a big gap between what they climb indoors versus outdoors might simply be slow at grasping outdoor climbing movement rather than having an insurmountable block for climbing outdoors.

I think I'm something of an outlier in terms of what I can eventually climb versus what I can climb in a few goes. Obviously many people would find it insufferably tedious to puzzle out the movements over many sessions. But I think there are some people who might quite enjoy doing that but simply don't realise that just because they can't climb eg a 7A in a session, doesn't mean they might not be able to climb a 7B+ in ten sessions (or whatever).

I'm not saying doing that is necessarily "good for anyones climbing" or anything. I'm just saying it is a perhaps overlooked option for how to enjoy being outside.

[abarro81]

I'd say the opposite, I think more people spend more and more time protecting from an early stage of their climbing and less and less time bashing out mileage and onsighting.. at least compared to 10-15 years ago (I'm thinking routes more than boulders, but it may be true for bouldering too)

[thunderbeest]

I think for bouldering projecting is a lot more time efficient to actually do some moves as it might take a lot of time to be unlock all the moves and can often even be a drive between different blocks. You can even stash pads to save time in the approach. So all of a sudden you can have a good (training) sesj while being outdoors at about 2-2.5 hours door to door.