[rodma]

I've missed ukb.

I love the fact that the conversations spread across the various threads.

I have a feeling that this one could end up breaking the record for topic splits since it really needs at least one more

Back on (not yet split) topic. If I give my son sugary drinks does that mean I can take him to the wall in the evenings like other parents do with their offspring, or will he remain a sleepy wee thing needing 11-odd hours sleep a night despite being almost 10 years old?

[sxrxg]

You aren't the only one thinking this about kids at the wall. My 9 year old needs to be on bed at 8 and asleep by 8:30 otherwise there would be no hope of him being awake enough for school.
9-11 hours is recommended for that age group. Always amazed talking to other parents how many other kids seem to go to bed at 9:30-10.

[rodma]

You aren't the only one thinking this about kids at the wall. My 9 year old needs to be on bed at 8 and asleep by 8:30 otherwise there would be no hope of him being awake enough for school.
9-11 hours is recommended for that age group. Always amazed talking to other parents how many other kids seem to go to bed at 9:30-10.

Absolutely

We only get the odd family session at the weekend, otherwise it's still alternating nights. No complaints at all with our lot,  merely an observation, although it does mean I'm more inclined to be pissed off with other parents down the wall on a weeknight, if their kids are running wild when I know mine is either in bed or getting ready for bed. I'm sympathetic at weekends though 

[thunderbeest]

Most be you Brits.
I remember a few weeks ago in Tenerife, no matter what time in the night you're out, there's always some Brits with their toddlers along.

[webbo]

Most be you Brits.
I remember a few weeks ago in Tenerife, no matter what time in the night you're out, there's always some Brits with their toddlers along.

Presumably sponsored by R@d B&ll

[Bradders]

I suspect if I were in a position to be sponsored, I doubt my morals would extend to saying no to generous, high-profile money from over-caffeinated sugary drink company. It sounds like athletes get a better deal from them than many places, including medical insurance, and scratching a living as a pro athlete must be hard enough. I do find it troubling how ubiquitous it is though.

As a teacher I've seen the effect that sugar marketing has. Kids genuinely believe that drinking over-caffeinated sugary drink company will help them to concentrate in class and do better. These are often the same kids whose parents send them to school with no breakfast (which is worryingly common in some schools). I've had kids throw up on me because they've chugged 2 Lucozades for breakfast. One lad had 5 Mars bars for his lunch - he bounced off the walls for 10 minutes before I had to ask the TA to take him for a run around the building. He had no idea that this might be bad for him, and I had to talk him through what he should eat for lunch and why all that sugar had ended up with him misbehaving. He was 16, and somehow all of the healthy eating messages had passed him by, but he actually responded really well and started showing up with fruit instead.

Agree with your first paragraph but there’s 0 evidence other than 1 study from the 70s which has pretty much been debunked showing that sugar causes hyperactivity in children…

Totally agree that sugar doesn't cause ADHD but I don't think that's what Wil was implying; more that it causes a spike in energy which affects behaviour which isn't actually "hyperactivity" within the definition of the "disorder" but is often colloquially described as "hyper".

The anecdotal evidence for sugar driving...let's call it excitable behaviour in children is simply massive. Talk to literally any parent and they'll give you an example.

I'm interested in this though as I've been very anti-sugar when it comes to what my daughter eats, albeit that's perhaps more down to other concerns around processed food. E.g. I was pretty shocked to find that when she joined her current nursery it was standard practice after lunch to have a pudding, which was almost always some variation of highly processed something or other. We put our foot down and now she literally has a "special dietary requirement" which means she has fruit instead! Mental, I thought.

Anyway going back a long, long way to Liam's original post...

I actually mostly agree with Dingdong’s comment.

I just wanted to highlight just how bad too much processed sugar is. And how the behaviour of the sugar industry mirrors a lot of how cigarettes were/are marketed too. I think people still overlook it sometimes.

'Too much', or 'excessive' amounts of anything are bad, literally by definition! Do you think that eating lots of sugar is bad because it isn't very satiating and therefore can more easily lead to over consumption of calories, or do you think sugar is bad independently of the calories it contains? If the former then I would tend to agree, but if the latter then I disagree because the balance of research doesn't support this claim.

All carbohydrates break down into sugar in the body. "But it's the type of sugar and the rate at which blood sugar rises that matters" I hear you cry. The most demonised form of sugar, fructose, is actually low on the glycemic-index, so how does that add up? Whilst some animal studies have shown that supraphysiological doses of fructose could cause fatty liver and obesity independently of caloric intake, systematic reviews and meta analyses on actual sugar/fructose intake in humans demonstrate that it has no effect on bodyweight when exchanged for other non-sugar carbohydrates and calories remain equal. Here is one exmaple: https://www.bmj.com/content/346/bmj.e7492

And what about exchanging sugar for dietary fat (e.g. Keto)? No difference in bodyweight or fat mass when sugar is substituted for dietary fat or protein under conditions of energy balance or in an energy deficit: ( https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/18779274/ , https://academic.oup.com/jn/article/145/3/459/4743683 , https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/3740086/ )

Systematic reviews and meta-analyses have shown no effect from sugar on cardiovascular disease risk factors, glycemic control, blood lipids, etc when substituted for other carbohydrates: (https://www.cmaj.ca/content/cmaj/189/20/E711.full.pdf , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6247175/ , https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5174149/ )

I haven't seen any systematic reviews or meta-analyses showing sugar or fructose to be fattening independently of the calories they contain. Therefore, I don't think there's any issue with climbers putting on a R3d Bu11 hat and taking a salary considering that their audience will tend to watch what they eat to some extent (probably avoiding over consumption), and exercising (climbing) regularly. For the record, I think that most people should limit sugar intake because it can lead to over consumption of calories, but it doesn't need to be avoided. The last sentence probably aligns with your views as well?

It's difficult to avoid the hysteria surrounding sugar because diet has become so tribal, and there's a lot of money to be made from selling books or Netflix documentaries. Keto zealots will shout about how bad carbs/sugar are, vegan zealots will shout about how bad meat is, fasting zealots will shout about autophagy, and so on... The truth is that all of these diets can be healthy and none are inherently good or bad. There are healthy populations in various regions around the world eating wildly different diets. One common denominator is that the current 'western diet' and lifestyle (I hate to use this phrase as it tends towards conspiracy) does seem to be uniquely unhealthy. However, sugar intake has actually dropped significantly over the last 20 years (including soft drinks) while obesity and type 2 diabetes have continued to increase (i'm getting bored of looking through my saved study references now, but it's out there if you're interested...). The cause is clearly not just one thing. Hyper-palatable processed foods (generally these have a mix of carbohydrate and dietary fat), more sedentary lifestyles, chronic stress, etc...

By the way, I don't doubt that there are poor business practices from 'big sugar'.

I think this is absolutely spot on. However, meanwhile in the real world sugar is just about the cheapest and most ubiquitous foodstuff you can find which makes it virtually impossible for anyone to keep anywhere near to the RDA. This is the problem, not that it's inherently bad for you. Thus, it is utterly routine for it to be consumed to excess by virtually everyone. Yes it's dropped recently, but from an extreme high.

But I also completely agree there are many other things at play in the increase in obesity, like sedentary lifestyles (even in supposedly active people), chronic stress (big one), massive marketing of hyper palatable and cheap food, etc.

[Yossarian]

I've always been fairly suspicious of any sort of kids' excitability effect driven by sugar. It's one of those things parents love to say, eg "oh, they're all on a massive sugar high" as if sugar induces some kind of intense, crack-like euphoric rush. Sometimes kids gorge themselves on sweets and cake at a party then run around like lunatics with their friends, which they'd probably still do if they'd had celery and hummus instead. And sometimes they eat ice-cream and chocolate and fall fast asleep.

As far as ADHD is concerned, I'm not really comfortable with it being discussed slightly flippantly alongside this sort of thing, because it's vastly more nuanced that just uncontrolled / an excess of physical energy, and it gets quite frustrating when there's a sense it's being (unintentionally) trivialised. Part of the reason mine went undiagnosed for so long (and why I'm a bit tetchy about it) was because my hyperactive symptoms are largely unrelated to motor activity.

[ali k]

Apropos of nothing, while I was waiting for my partner to collect a parcel at the BP garage/Spar near me I wandered round the aisles. Normally I’m just in and out so don’t really pay much attention, but f*** me I was appalled at the offering. I mean I know petrol stations aren’t health food shops but still. It was just brightly coloured energy drinks, chocolate bars, crisps and sweets as far as the eye could see. I guesstimated 95% of what that place sells is either pure sugar, ultra processed crap, tobacco or vapes.

Just what a healthy population needs.

[MischaHY]

Climbers don’t seem to be that affected by all the money R e d Bull pump into sponsorship do they? Has anyone else ever seen a climber drink one (or any fizzy pop for that matter) at the crag or wall?

As a wall manager who sells that stuff: yes climbers drink it. We sell more over-caffeinated sugary drink company than Monster, but I think compared to the rest of society, a lot less at least. Here in Norway the market of energy drinks has outgrown the soda pops, but we sell almost as much water.

Brunost is the real way to carb load anyway 

[Moo]

I was looking forwards to this thread, what a shambles.

[MischaHY]

However, meanwhile in the real world sugar is just about the cheapest and most ubiquitous foodstuff you can find which makes it virtually impossible for anyone to keep anywhere near to the RDA. This is the problem, not that it's inherently bad for you. Thus, it is utterly routine for it to be consumed to excess by virtually everyone. Yes it's dropped recently, but from an extreme high.

Broadly agree with your thoughts but find this an odd statement. I personally make all food from scratch simply because this is the cheapest way. 1-2 fruits or vegetables per meal, some kind of carb and a protein source. Sourdough bread (the cheapest way to eat good bread ). I treat sugar similarly to alcohol in that it’s something I enjoy sometimes because food isn’t just about nutrition.

I agree that hidden sugars in pre prepared foods is problematic but I disagree that it’s the cheapest way to eat. This statement has always baffled me.

[ali k]

I agree that hidden sugars in pre prepared foods is problematic but I disagree that it’s the cheapest way to eat. This statement has always baffled me.

This is a whole other side topic re: costs of cooking from scratch vs a ready meal bunged in the microwave. Same goes for homemade sourdough bread vs the cheapest white sliced stuff. Once you factor in the luxury of the time it takes to prepare, oven/hob costs, and some pricey store cupboard flavourings that are usually taken for granted I’d be surprised if it still works out cheaper.

[MischaHY]

I agree that hidden sugars in pre prepared foods is problematic but I disagree that it’s the cheapest way to eat. This statement has always baffled me.

This is a whole other side topic re: costs of cooking from scratch vs a ready meal bunged in the microwave. Same goes for homemade sourdough bread vs the cheapest white sliced stuff. Once you factor in the luxury of the time it takes to prepare, oven/hob costs, and some pricey store cupboard flavourings that are usually taken for granted I’d be surprised if it still works out cheaper.

My average meal cost for the last three months was something like 1,50 - 2€ ink. all ingredients.

No I didn’t eat a lot of meat 

I appreciate people have different lives and timeframes. I don’t personally feel like I spend a lot of time on food prep. Maybe 45 mins a day.

[Bradders]

As far as ADHD is concerned, I'm not really comfortable with it being discussed slightly flippantly alongside this sort of thing, because it's vastly more nuanced that just uncontrolled / an excess of physical energy, and it gets quite frustrating when there's a sense it's being (unintentionally) trivialised. Part of the reason mine went undiagnosed for so long (and why I'm a bit tetchy about it) was because my hyperactive symptoms are largely unrelated to motor activity.

Well yes, this is kind of why I weighed in as from my read literally no one suggested sugar causes or exacerbates ADHD symptoms but we then got into a load of studies proving that it doesn't. I.e., we're all very much on the same page there!

However, meanwhile in the real world sugar is just about the cheapest and most ubiquitous foodstuff you can find which makes it virtually impossible for anyone to keep anywhere near to the RDA. This is the problem, not that it's inherently bad for you. Thus, it is utterly routine for it to be consumed to excess by virtually everyone. Yes it's dropped recently, but from an extreme high.

Broadly agree with your thoughts but find this an odd statement. I personally make all food from scratch simply because this is the cheapest way. 1-2 fruits or vegetables per meal, some kind of carb and a protein source. Sourdough bread (the cheapest way to eat good bread ). I treat sugar similarly to alcohol in that it’s something I enjoy sometimes because food isn’t just about nutrition.

I agree that hidden sugars in pre prepared foods is problematic but I disagree that it’s the cheapest way to eat. This statement has always baffled me.

Note I said foodstuff. Perhaps ingredient would have been a better word.

Agree with Ali's points.

Also agree that people absolutely could make the time to cook food but it's considerably easier to buy a ready meal for, say £1.50 and cook that in 2 minutes.

[stone]

I see food prep time as fun time.

It's certainly cheaper as a recreational activity than yachting or horse racing or whatever.

If you can get to Lidl in time to get their £1:50 veg boxes, fresh produce is crazy cheap. Even if you can't, it's not hard to be pretty cost effective. I get the 7kg sacks of potatoes, the special offer fruit and veg etc. You can cook wonderful meals for a couple of £ per person in well under an hour.

I guess people are too busy watching Bakeoff and Masterchef to cook themselves though.

I really think marketing ploys are behind what I see as a catastrophic health crisis brought about by junk food.

There's a great podcast about processed food -the nutrion, sociology, psychology etc https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p0c98bfy

[stone]

If you go to India or Pakistan, you see people cooking amazing food with just some scrap metal as utensils, an open fire, and extraordinarily cheap ingredients.

[spidermonkey09]

I'm not sure if people intend it, but a lot of the "it's so cheap to cook healthy meals from scratch" chat could come from a Lee Anderson speech.

The issue is not the cost of the food itself. It is time, paying the electricity and gas bills, having the necessary pots, pans and ingredients. It's enormously simplistic to just point to a cheap veg box from Aldi.

[sdm]

Food prep doesn't have to be expensive or time consuming but it does take planning and initial effort to do it cheaply and quickly. I am time poor, make most of my meals from scratch, and typically spend 2-3 hours a week on food prep.

With Lidl's veg boxes, and Aldi's Super 6 of cheap fruit and veg, you can get a good variety of affordable fruit and veg. The big supermarkets do a lot of variety of frozen fruit and veg that are a good option for the time poor or those who struggle to eat fresh food before it goes off. A lot of fresh ingredients can be frozen too, so stocking up when things are on offer is an option.

Store cupboard ingredients don't have to be expensive either. I get all my dried herbs and spices from an Indian supermarket, where a 500g bag of spices will be cheaper and higher quality than a 10g jar from Tesco. They also do a huge range of tinned beans and pulses for <40p each, or cheaper if you're willing to use dried (I'm too time poor to go for dried a lot of the time). Staple "ethnic" ingredients that the big supermarkets charge a big premium for are very cheap. Rice and grains bought in bulk are half the price of the big supermarkets.

For Chinese/Japanese/Korean ingredients, I go to a Chinese supermarket that is cheaper and better than you get from the big supermarkets.

For fresh herbs, wait until a supermarket has a pot on quick sale. Repot it, and a lot of herbs will last 1+ years if grown on a windowsill, or indefinitely in a garden. Mint, thyme, rosemary and chives are indestructible in a garden, no matter how much you neglect them.

For meat eaters, some butchers do a freezer box of assorted meats that work out cheaper than supermarkets.

I make as many portions as I can fit in the pan/dish. Eat 1 today, 1 or 2 in the fridge for tomorrow or the day after, and the rest go in the freezer so you always have a variety of meals ready to just reheat when you don't have time to cook.

I have a number of quick and easy meals that I can make in very little time if I get back late from the wall and need something ASAP. A delicious ramen bowl is ready in the time it takes to soft boil some eggs. When I make gnocchi, I do it on an industrial scale and freeze portions, which can be turned into a meal in 5 minutes. Lots of pasta dishes can be made in the time it takes to boil some pasta. Soups and slow cooker meals may take a while to cook, but typically only 5-10 minutes of active time.

[sdm]

I'm not sure if people intend it, but a lot of the "it's so cheap to cook healthy meals from scratch" chat could come from a Lee Anderson speech.

The issue is not the cost of the food itself. It is time, paying the electricity and gas bills, having the necessary pots, pans and ingredients. It's enormously simplistic to just point to a cheap veg box from Aldi.

Most of my meals are cooked using some combination of a 20 year old wok, 20 year old saucepans, and 20 year old oven dishes. All of which were bought on a very tight student budget.

A lifetime of cooking equipment can be acquired for nothing or next to nothing on marketplace etc. My scales, mixing bowl, baking tins, tagine, gas barbecue and panini maker were all free.

I have some luxuries, but they aren't essential. The slow cooker was less than £20 6 years ago. Lidl were selling them for £15 a few weeks ago.

The energy difference between cooking from scratch vs cooking/reheating ready meals isn't that great. For half of the year, it's approximately zero because you save on heating costs.

[Droyd]

I'm not sure if people intend it, but a lot of the "it's so cheap to cook healthy meals from scratch" chat could come from a Lee Anderson speech.

The issue is not the cost of the food itself. It is time, paying the electricity and gas bills, having the necessary pots, pans and ingredients. It's enormously simplistic to just point to a cheap veg box from Aldi.

Exactly this, and a thousand other things that many take for granted - the time and mental energy to even think about your diet critically, the knowledge about how to cook things (having either been raised in a household where healthy meals are a thing or somehow learning this independently), the proximity to a supermarket (you're much more likely to live in a food desert if you're on a lower income) and ability to get there (owning a car or having decent public transport), that supermarket not being a less time-efficient option than the corner shop and all of its junk, the time to be able to shop multiple times a week in order to have the fresh veg in or ability to store plenty of frozen stuff, being in a position where 30-60 minutes spent prepping and cooking isn't an enormous chunk of your free time, not having a million other things to do such that chucking something in the oven or microwave is more time-efficient than chopping veg because it allows you to do some of your other household jobs while the food is cooking... There are a lot of things that make it difficult to eat both healthy and cheap: some are obvious, some aren't, but the fact that you're able to do it doesn't mean that others are lazy or stupid for not being able to. It may point to the difficulty of their lives, the relative ease of yours, or both.

Also, the idea that people are too busy watching TV to cook healthy meals is uncharacteristically ungenerous of you stone, and a bit 'millennials could afford a house if they stopped having avocado toast and takeaway coffee'.

[spidermonkey09]

There are so many things in sdm's post that many could just not consider. I make that 4, possibly 5 different shops you go to to get your ingredients. What if you don't have the time, or a car to get there? What if you have to move house frequently so can't buy a shit load of pots and pans? What if you haven't got a big freezer, or indeed a freezer at all? Not to mention that you are clearly incredibly knowledgeable about food preparation and storage. I'm privileged in a million different ways and I'm frequently too tired/have too many other things to do to cook as you do. Or, of course, I'm just lazy.

[User deactivated.]

We can come up with a million ways that families can eat healthily on the cheap and without a huge time investment, but it's irrelevant.

Huge generalisation incoming that might seem a bit mean, but I think there's a lot of truth to it:  fat families with fat parents and fat kids don't see it as a problem to solve. It's just their normal lived life (probably like many of their peers/community) and the way they eat is just the way they eat. To them, athletic bodied people are 'others', perhaps even 'unrealistic ideals', but certainly not something they consider becoming.

If a Buddhist Monk were judgemental, they might look at most of us reading thinking 'look at these silly people shortening their lives with stress, living in a rat race in pursuit of material things'. They might have a point, but our 9-5's, career progression and mortgages are just how we live, like many of our peers and we don't see it as a problem to solve. It's just normal life. Unfortunately, obesity is also completely normalised now; it's unusual not to be obese in some communities!

The only solution to the obesity problem that I see (on a population scale) would be the government doing what they did with smoking. That could mean banning the sale of shit food in certain environments, enforcing generic packaging with graphic photos of heart disease and cancer, increasing tax (unsure on this one), mass education, actually prioritising it in schools, age restrictions, etc. It sounds and probably is unrealistic but it's the only way.

In reality, what will happen is we'll slowly lose the NHS and health care insurance will be dependent on BMI... (Shudder)


PS. All this is based on very half baked ideas that you can probably poke a lot of holes in. 

[ali k]

I’m gonna go out on a limb here, but from your post sdm it sounds like you’re maybe single and don’t have kids? Apols if I’ve got that wrong. All the things you mention re: shopping and batch cooking I used to do, and still try to whenever I can. But these days I just find it becoming more and more unrealistic as life gets in the way and/or I prioritise other things. And that’s with both me and my partner mostly wfh.

For a large family ‘batch’ cooking probably means having leftovers for maybe one meal the following day if they’re lucky. Unless your portion size is that of a mouse. It’s all very well shopping for fresh ingredients and batch cooking for a single person or even a couple, but for a family of 4 or 5 the idea you could cook and store meals for days in advance seems very optimistic to me. Unless you dedicated an entire day at the weekend to it, or one parent doesn’t work of course.

[sdm]

There are so many things in sdm's post that many could just not consider. I make that 4, possibly 5 different shops you go to to get your ingredients. What if you don't have the time, or a car to get there?

My location does make it easier to keep costs down. Although I do have a car, I don't need one to achieve this. Living in a rural area without a car would be totally different.

I live in postindustrial 2 up 2 down terraced land. There's certainly areas that are more deprived, but it is not a rich area. There's big Asian, Middle Eastern, East African and Eastern European populations here, so the cheap ethnic stores thrive.

Our bus service is awful, I'm glad I've never had to use it. If you don't have children in tow, escooter rental here works out less than half the price of buses. A lot of people here who don't have cars rely on the escooters.

I go to a supermarket about once per week. I switch between them as different ones are good/cheap for different things. I only go to the Chinese one maybe twice a year, to stock up on products that last. I go to the Indian one more frequently, because it's only on the next street.

What if you haven't got a big freezer, or indeed a freezer at all?

All of my white goods, my TV, TV stand, 2 sofas, 2 beds and 2 wardrobes were free too.

Not to mention that you are clearly incredibly knowledgeable about food preparation and storage.

I went away to uni with zero cooking knowledge. We learnt to cook because as a household, we couldn't afford not to. We lived almost entirely off yellow sticker reductions, and it was a 30 minute bike ride up the steep Bristol hills from the supermarket.

I'm privileged in a million different ways and I'm frequently too tired/have too many other things to do to cook as you do. Or, of course, I'm just lazy.

I completely get this as well. I'm not saying that it's easy to make food how I do. I understand why a lot of people can't or won't do what I do.

When I've been through particularly busy times at work, I've found it easy to fall into bad habits with food. It's so much harder to plan things when you're tired, hungry, stressed and short of time.

But when I've done that, it has cost me more time and more money overall.

[Will Hunt]

Sorry to pick on you, Stone, but it's crazy to me how far you will deceive yourself to give the benefit of the doubt to someone trashing the rock at Almscliff, but simultaneously anybody who isn't cooking everything from scratch - using scrap metal as a frying pan if necessary - is lazy.

Dead easy to spot the people without kids here. We never eat ready meals that go in the microwave, but we do use shortcuts for some stuff. Stir fry sauces, fish cakes that just need to go in the oven. Between two parents' jobs, swimming lessons, Rainbows, cricket/climbing wall with the eldest, my climbing, her hockey, play dates and parties, supervised reading every night, reading to them every night, and the housework, somewhere along the way we gave up on the idea of keeping our own sourdough starter. What a terrible excuse for the middle class we are.