[Hoseyb]

Obviously this is aimed at males ( ie Fiend) but it made me think of where my missus is at. She used to run loads and climb little. All fine. Then coming up to perimenapause running stopped being useful, any weight management she found from running in her 30s ceased. She did some research, cut the running to a minimum and switched to strength based activity, primarily bouldering, but also weights. It really worked well for her, and I can see I'm going to keep up my game or she'll overtake me 
The link between hormones and strength training seems well established ( if little broadcast) for women, I'm sure it must be similar in men

[Will Hunt]

I haven't read all this but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.

If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?

This would raise a question - and I'm not making any suggestions here because I have no idea what you've tried to date and whether what might work for me might also work for you - whether there is another way of managing your mental health than by doing lots of low intensity exercise. I presume you've spoken to a GP, sought counselling, use SSRIs, and I presume you've also tried to engage in some routine activity that isn't climbing-related and which gets you out of the house and interacting with others. This needn't be paid employment, it could be voluntary work (not guidebook work which is often done alone and isn't routine).

Please don't feel the need to list exactly what you've tried that isn't low intensity climbing. This isn't an interrogation of your private medical history, nor do I doubt that you have tried lots of alternative therapies, I'm just thinking aloud. If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.

[mrjonathanr]

@OMM no chance of staring out of the window and trying to forget about training with that set up

[petejh]

I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw

 

Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents 

[Oldmanmatt]

I filmed myself training on the Flight Deck at the 6 month point, just out of amazement at my recovery. I believe trying on a moving surface helped, by the way. https://www.instagram.com/p/CfyaZgYjOB9/?igsh=aHNzNmNpZ3dvMjJw

 

Is that one of the RFA 'Forts' or 'Waves'? I nosed around in the guts of all of the Forts and the Waves over the last ten or so years, planning/pricing access jobs when they're in for maintenance. Mostly cleaning fuel tanks or engine vents 

Bay Class landing ship. Transiting to Indian Ocean to the Gulf.

[petejh]

Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way. 

[Fiend]

I haven't read all this

obviously 

but from a skim I think the gist is that you do lots of lower intensity exercise and have noticed a decline from PB strength? This doesn't seem surprising if the way to gain and maintain strength is by doing less volume at higher intensity.

Not quite. In the past I've taken time off PB strength, but as long as I've done lots of lower intensity exercise to keep my body moving, I've got back into PB strength quite quickly with a return to some regularity (unlike if I take time off LOLIE too in which case I grind to a halt and it takes ages for me to get anything back). As per...

My previous experience is: If I go to the gym sporadically, but maintain a good level of activity with climbing days out, indoor walls, and other stuff, I can get back into gym lifts pretty quickly - I don't progress nor get near PBs without more regularity, but I regain previous norms well with just a bit more regularity.

My current experience is: That ain't happening.

But...

If you're using a high volume of low intensity exercise to try and maintain your mental health, is that not mutually exclusive from doing exercise that would gain/maintain strength? Maybe you can't both have your cake and eat it?

If low intensity exercise was the best and only way to manage my mental health then (personally) I'd accept the strength decline as a battle which needs to be lost in order to win the war.

This might be the nub of the issue. I think the HVLI is essential for my physical health too given my issues, based on previous experiences. But I think there's a good point there, if, as per the consensus of this thread, it's a 3 way strength decline + rebound decline + quick recovery decline (3 times quicker than I expected from just the strength decline - ofc assuming there's no post-Bangface post-viral issues I've missed), then maybe I've got to pick what I want to do best in. Do I want to claw back a 160kg DL at the expense of Depot Red circuits, or do I want to keep fairly fluid on Depot Red circuits, knowing that doesn't allow me enough recovery time to get DL strength back?? 


P.S. MrJR : One thing I will be sacrificing and cutting out is high volume high intensity high regularity Lancs cleaning, yes. There was a clear cut issue with fatigue from that over summer and I have learnt from that mistake.


P.S. Thanks to everyone treating this question respectfully and giving me useful answers here and on messages. I'm getting a bit more of an idea what could be going on.

[Will Hunt]

I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).

[mrjonathanr]

Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.

Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.

[Johnny Brown]

OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.

[Oldmanmatt]

OMM, by callisthenics do you mean the ring/ bar stuff illustrated, or something else? I’ve been trying to evolve my yoga routine into something more flowy and targeting strength and mobility.

Rings and bar at the moment. I’m looking at more floor based exercise over the next three months, but not settled on a plan yet. I am now beginning to have mobility/flexibility issues, probably due to driving a desk too much. Oh, I live on the 14th floor and have started walking up at the end of the day. Well, most days.

[jwi]

I don't have anything useful to add, but anecdotically and subjectively I did not loose strength in my mid 40s. I lost strength-speed, as fully expected, but age related strenght loss did not happen. n = n+1

[Fultonius]

Great thread. I listened to that podcast, Pete. It was very interesting (after the first 15 mins of name dropping). Did you buy his book? Obviously in a conversation you kind of have to take his word for the accuracy of what he’s saying, but the science sounds very plausible.

I did, out of curiosity. Not sure I'd recommend it. The programme (and general tone) in his book seems aimed towards a stereotype of a 50-something overweight senior manager in banking, who's never been particularly interested in physical challenge. I read it with a sense of 'these are not my people'. However the fundamentals seem pretty legit and I think are worth trying to adopt. I'm particularly interested in the claims about the relationship between fasting, heavy weights, intensity and hormones - I alluded to this in the thread about knee injuries on here a while back (also started by Fiend...). I've read various of the studies linked in Robert's book. It doesn't appear super-convincing that they show strong evidence for what the claims, not that I'm any expert, and imo his language makes the science sound a lot more settled than it is. But there does appear to be something there. Have also read studies that contradict his claims. The problem with most of the studies is small scale, and they're never quite testing for MY specific circumstances! Trying by doing.. do what feels good nd seems to work, beware of harmful side effects. Seems the best way.

Yes, that sounds sensible. I recall the knee thread. Might try a one day a week short sharp weights session after fasting and see how that goes. It put me in mind of Jerry describing how he’d eat nothing till midday then get on his garage board to try projects. I wonder if that had a similar effect.

I'd be interested in the outcomes of this - maybe worth a thread split? I'm now 40.75years old, so just scraping into the bottom end of the category and actually strength is ok just now (don't want to hijack this thread), but weight has crept up a bit and I basically seem to tank my metabolism if I don't eat enough (appetite drops, but I also get cranky, sleep badly, lose motivation).It seems like my natural bf% settles out at the higher end, probably in the >15% range. I'm looking for ways of being able to lose a few KG, while keeping everything else firing ok.  I've been dabbling a little with a kind of high/low int fasting diet. (described as "Lean Gainz" on reddit  ) where you aim to eat a little more than maintenance on training days, and a little under on rest days. So far it's not having much effect 

Edited to add - I have noticed, a bit like OMM, that I can still easily punch out massive days - in the dolomites earlier this year we did a 200m 7a, followed by then a 600m 7b+ the following day, and I'd say at the end of the day I was still going pretty strong. However, the next day I was totally destroyed, and didn't really fully recover for about 3-4 weeks after I got home. Whereas, when I was younger I could go out and do a winter day and be totally wrecked at the end, be tired the next day but back to full power the day after.  Maybe we just get better a suffering when we get older and can then tap into deep reserves that are less accessible when young, but this really drain us?

[petejh]

This is what I played around with (still am in theory.. haven't over xmas):

the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.

During the '8hr window' I was eating a normal # of calories.
Next day, I did the workout before eating. My workout is at home using kettlebells, weighted pullups, deadlift, weighted press-ups, squat, shoulder press. So alternating muscle groups. I tried to make it heavy'ish (for me) except the squat due to injured knee. 8 reps max and intense - with 0 rest between one compound exercise and another, then rest between sets. Short workout of around 30-40mins. I was just trying to (in theory..) stimulate HGH/testosterone release.
Then breakfast lunch dinner = 800 calories.

I did it once per week for few weeks. 

There seems to be no clear answer that I could find on which is theoretically best out of:
8hr 'eating window', 16hr fast, then eat before workout, then normal eating (or limited calories day).
8hr eating window, 16hr fast, then workout before eating, then normal eating (or limited calories day).

Would be interested to hear others' experience.

[andy popp]

As others have effectively said, a lot of this is surely about baselines. I was probably physically strongest in my 40s because I had a steep old school board at home and used it a lot. I climbed much harder through my mid-20s to late-30s but without any meaningful training, just a lot of climbing. I was objectively weak on a lot of measures. So purely anecdotal, but strength gains are certainly possible in your 40s (especially for the previously under-trained). In terms of diet I’d already been vegan 15 years by the time I entered my 40s.

[Bonjoy]

From my experience and observation, if you are lucky enough to not be encumbered by illness or injury you can maintain your level or even improve right through your 40s, if you remain psyched and keep trying hard. But they are two big ifs and most climbers get effectively knocked out by one or the other. In my (age 50) case I can't push finger strength due to dupuytrens and as a result my fingers have got steadily weaker. I can still climb okay but it's hard to fight decline if you can't train properly and I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.

[stone]

I saw this interview about this with Martin Keller, who's a 46yo V16 climber https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/

[SA Chris]

I mean, what do you need this strength for anyway? Bouldering? Bouldering is fucking bullshit. Routes? You don't need to be that strong to do the crux of most routes in your future oeuvre (stuff like Metal Guru can get straight in the bin).

Listen to the podcast? All the health benefits mentioned from resistance training?

[User deactivated.]

I saw this interview about this with Martin Keller, who's a 46yo V16 climber https://www.climbing.com/people/martin-keller-interview-2023/

Going up 2 grades from 8B+ to 8C+ while in his 40's is amazing. Also weighing around 80kg! Hero! 

[slab_happy]

From reading on here I know you have also had a tough time with your mental health too. I suspect that also affects your strength. Quite literally not just in a motivation sense. Definitely will also contribute to feeling run down and tired. Be kind to yourself Fiend.

Yeah, in my experience depression and/or overload will directly affect my strength (and because my mental health stuff fluctuates a lot I can see that pretty clearly).

But then there's also the secondary effect that comes from the depression and overload (and being easily-fatigued, possibly related to CFS in my teens) making it vastly harder to train often enough or consistently enough.

And I've found that trying to force myself to stick to a training plan when I'm feeling totally wrecked tends to end badly, even if I can make myself do it; I start getting "overtraining" type symptoms even if the amount of actual training I'm doing is fairly low.

Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.

Add being 49, some injuries, and a massive flare-up of chronic illness stuff that ate the first half of 2023, and it's horribly easy to get into a downwards spiral. From which I am currently trying to extract myself. And I might even be making some progress, fingers crossed.

Things I'm currently trying to figure out: how to get enough consistency to improve, while also having the flexibility to adjust on a day-to-day basis based on how I feel.

I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).

Anyway, dunno how much (if any) of that might be relevant for you, Fiend, just dumping it here in case it's of interest.

[steveri]

Still believe there's gains to be had, but need increasing amounts of effort to get there. Bouldering about where I was 25 years ago, bonus of never having reached potential, 60 this year.

[mrjonathanr]

Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.

This ^

I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).

Thanks to Stone for his link above, I listened to Martin Keller who discusses this in the Nugget podcast. Very interesting, once you get past the first 5 minutes of marketing waffle.
https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/martin-keller

[Fiend]

From my experience and observation, if you are lucky enough to not be encumbered by illness or injury you can maintain your level or even improve right through your 40s, if you remain psyched and keep trying hard. But they are two big ifs and most climbers get effectively knocked out by one or the other. In my (age 50) case I can't push finger strength due to dupuytrens and as a result my fingers have got steadily weaker. I can still climb okay but it's hard to fight decline if you can't train properly and I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.

That's me as totally and thoroughly fucked as I'd feared then!! I can't foresee being able to do actual training again without a lobotomy that would get me to tolerate a regime so dryily boring and detatched from any climbing enjoyment that even barrows would go "fuck this I'll just get a stickier kneepad".


P.S. Slabs: your brain dumps are as welcome as always and definitely some things to be aware of in there.

[duncan]

Interesting threat. Lots of people seem to have experienced something along the same lines.

I’m going to assume you’ve no underlying medical problem. Blood test to screen for obvious stuff like blood sugar etc? Unfortunately going to your GP with this is likely to get as much attention as a middle aged woman saying she is tired. 

A lot of people reach a similar point in their late 30s / early 40s when their previous reliance on talent plus natural athleticism plus regularly turning up is no longer enough. People reach a tipping point where an accumulation of little changes has a more noticeable effect. Different people respond to this differently: accept a decline, retire completely and take up cycling, look for magic fixes...? 

... I think (actual) training matters more not less as you get older.

Emphatically agree. It took me a long time to realise this includes supportive exercises, ie less specific to climbing, as muscles atrophy. Particularly important if you can’t get to rock 2-3 times a week. I’ve applied myself a bit more systematically in the last few years and slowly clawed back some fitness when I finally realised I’m not 30-something any more and that modern walls don’t translate to the outside like 90s Mile End. Got a fingerboard PB in November this year.

I also like the Martin Keller podcasts (ironic, see a couple of paras later). One of a few people I might pay for coaching despite him being a boulderer who likes a siege and not a trad. climber who likes an onsight. Unfortunately, as an economist, he has a good idea of his worth. Something that might resonate with Fiend is that he likes to do his training on the rock: however this involves heavily focusing on bouldering, frequently solo, and seems to involve driving a massive amount.

A lot of people on this thread are saying similar things, firstly, a lot of low/medium intensity activity is fun but will do very little for max. strength and, secondly, max. strength is a lot harder to maintain and slower to come back as you get older for various reasons: hormonal, accumulated injuries, neuroplasticity(?), lifestyle(??). Therefore a strength decline is not a big surprise.

A second theme is the one that Will and slab_happy especially have mentioned. Climbing is incredibly important to you, a huge part of your identity, and a major coping strategy for dealing with MH issues. Climbing related activities allow you to support this identity even when you’re injured, so probably good in the short term for MH but possibly not for maintaining strength. Also possibly not so good if you want to broaden where you find your sense of identity.

Another theme is a hormonal/physiological dysfunction. I’m not the person to ask about this, other than to agree with those upthread who say MH issues and MH medication can both affect physiology and the interaction between MH and physiology is about far more than lack of motivation to exercise. Pete, can you suggest a written alternative to the podcast that doesn't involve giving him money!? I would normally cross the road to avoid David Cameron’s personal trainer but gritted my teeth. Couldn’t get past the first 15 minutes of self-congratulation and celebrity gossip. 

[digression] Also, I like podcasts for entertainment but less so when I need to digest and judge the validity of information. This means reading stuff at my pace, including skimming or rereading according to how familiar I am with the subject and taking notes. A podcast (or video) imposes its pace on you and gives you less chance to reflect. Perhaps why they are beloved of sales people and conspiracy theorists! [/digression].


What choices do you have?

- Continue as you are, choosing this will involve a decline in performance. This wouldn't be the end of the world.
- Choose to do better structured strength training.
- Even with better training, choosing other fun stuff on top of it may have an impact on recovery and hence strength and performance.
- Experimenting with Pete’s ideas. Many people are big fans. 
- Consider other, less physical, ways to support your MH and identity. Indirectly this may give you more energy for focused training or just climbing.
- Probably other things I've not thought about

[slab_happy]

Basically, I have to count mental stress as part of the overall load on my body, when thinking about what I can do and how much recovery I need.

This ^

I'm also paying attention to how much different forms of exercise "cost" in terms of motivation required for me to actually do them, and how I can reduce that, because it really doesn't matter if something might be "optimal" in training terms if it becomes impossible and gets abandoned as soon as I have a bad brain patch (unless there's some other thing I can do to maintain the gains from it in the meantime, I guess).

Thanks to Stone for his link above, I listened to Martin Keller who discusses this in the Nugget podcast. Very interesting, once you get past the first 5 minutes of marketing waffle.
https://thenuggetclimbing.com/episodes/martin-keller

Oh, interesting, I'll have to check that out.