[User deactivated.]

I've been cramming my feet into small rock shoes for a while now and the discomfort has become normal to the point that I don't really recognise it. For reference I'm a 10 UK in normal trainers and wear Scarpa Instincts in a 7 / 41 - these are the smallest I can get into.

I feel that I perform best when my big toe is rammed against the end of the shoe in a highly crimped position with as little material between my toe and the wall as possible. But then again, I've been paying most attention to how my shoes feel on a 50 degree board with small c.10-15mm screw ons for feet. It's unsurprising that an extreme foot position works best on this terrain.

But even with all this downsizing, I've still not found a heel cup that I fill without dead space underneath. I had a lightbulb moment that maybe this is actually because of extreme downsizing, so I need to experiment with bigger shoes. I'm aware that a shoe should also smear better when not downsized too aggressively. I think I get around this currently by weighing over 80kg.

Is it just an uncomfortable truth (like low bodyweight is better for tiny crimping) that having the ultimate edging performance on steep walls with small feet means probably doing lasting damage to your feet? (I'm sure Ondra doesn't go down 5 sizes for no reason). If so, I think I may need to set more problems with larger foot holds and limit my time in my size 7's.

Really I'm just looking for some thoughts / anecdotes on rock shoe sizing and how much others downsize.

[Dingdong]

I don’t usually downsize more than 1 to 1 and half sizes but I have really wide feet, this also depends on brand, with UP shoes I can’t downsize at all otherwise I can’t get them on. With sportiva I downsize bigger than evolves by about a half to full size. I’m a street 8 and usually wear a 6 1/2 to 7. Definitely worth going to a shop and trying as many different brands and models as you can in different sizes, a well fitting heel is pretty important as I’m sure you already know!

[sirlockoff]

funny you mention this!

i actually had little revelation myself about 6 months ago, I have been wearing la sportiva solutions well over 8 years, always size 43.5, and occasionally 43 for more "hardcore heels" and "invisible footholds", however at some point I've started having issues with my toes due to this downsizing, some pain and so on. In other words, that was not going to work for the long term.

I am 47 street size - note solutions are a bit oddity as the sizing works differently, I don't actually downsize that much normally, neither would it be possible, that is just to say if you hear ondra wearing solutions X size and has Y size street shoes, that does not convert to other models/brands - I wear size 46 unparallel, 45 would kill me).


I've recently switched to 43.5 solution comps, but the pain was just amplified, I now wear solution comps at size 44, my feet have never been this happy, and I feel like cinderella, and I've gotten some hard heelhooks done too. In 3 months of font, I did not once blame the shoes for anything neither wished anything was different, I don't even take my shoes off, and the other day I was doing 100kg squats in the shoes, felt great.

moral of the story, it is worth trying bigger shoes, also to take into account that you want to do this sport for more 30-40+ years, you deffo need to have comfortable shoes. If you find there is some specific problem that just does not work with your comfortable shoes, have a backup shoes that are optimized for cases where the comfortable shoes fail.

The heelcup fit is more to do really with how the shoe fits you, not so much about downsizing, I've tried more than 30+ shoes, but the only ones that really hit the spot were solutions / unparallel uprise pro (for trad),

was there not company who did custom sizing 3d printing? if you really wanna optimize the size!

[mrjonathanr]

I feel that I perform best when my big toe is rammed against the end of the shoe in a highly crimped position with as little material between my toe and the wall as possible.

Why not try something that automatically does this for you, like Magos, for example?

Evolv Phantom and Shaman also orientate the toe down and support the space underneath with a bump.

I used to use really tight Magos then realised that half a size up made no difference to performance and was a lot more comfortable.

Edit - you asked about sizing. 42 street shoe. 41.5 mago mk 2 (blue and yellow), 42 shaman.
41 in Instincts, but I’ve sacked these off as they’re not asymmetrical enough and bend my big toe unpleasantly. Last shape is key to comfort.

[User deactivated.]

I have Evolv Phantoms and they feel far less powerful on my feet on small holds compared to my favoured La Sportiva Theory's similarly downsized (yes, the comp style blob jumping shoe, allegedly). Anyone want to buy some Phantom's (9 UK)? Despite fitting quite well (except the heel of course), the shape of the toebox just doesn't seem to work for me.

Funny you should mention Mago's. I have a pair sat on my desk right now after ordering a load of shoes from bananafingers. I misremembered my Instinct size at the time of ordering and went with a 7.5. they feel extremely tight but actually quite good in the toe, though I haven't climbed in them. The heel is still loose. I went back to check the bananafingers sizing calculator and it reckons if I wear Instincts in a 7 then I should wear Mago's in a 6.5  that is incomprehensible to me.

Still, I am tempted to keep Mago's as my uncomfortable, very downturned and asymmetrical edging weapons, and just try to do a bit less of this style of climbing (more feet follow problems on the board I reckon). Then I think I need to experiment with upsizing an all rounder like the Instinct.

Still doesn't solve the heel issue!

[teestub]

Have you tried something stiffer and lace up like a katana? Theoretically a stiffer mid sole should give you similar toe power without the crippling fit. I think lace ups generally fee stiffer than slipper equivalents just because of the structure that the laces adds.

[mrjonathanr]

Toe power comes from the downward angle of the toe, according to Scarpa. Seems to make sense- super tight shoes force the knuckle up and toe down. Or shoes like Mago etc are designed that way without having to totally crunch your big toe.

Re Magos- I was underwhelmed by how soft the new ones are so bought a couple of pairs of the blue and yellow ones. They’re a lot stiffer.

[mrjonathanr]

I went back to check the bananafingers sizing calculator and it reckons if I wear Instincts in a 7 then I should wear Mago's in a 6.5  that is incomprehensible to me.

Don’t believe everything you read on t’interweb.

What’s the heel issue? Are they baggy? The Shamans (lace ups, the Velcro are too soft imo) have a shallow heel. This annoys me because I prefer the deeper heel cup but might suit you?

[abarro81]

Re Magos- I was underwhelmed by how soft the new ones are

Yeah, they're not an edging shoe in any conventional way of understanding what that means IMO, despite what Scarpa says. I like them for bouldering and 10m routes but can't climb long routes in them due to the softness (even on steep ground - too soft for routes with kneebars IMO, I use a stockpile of resoled old red instinct laces or Booster S for 90% of my sport climbing).

[mrjonathanr]

If they can do novelty runs of shoes surely it would be easy for them to do 2 versions of main lines? Ones with say a 1mm midsole for indoors and a 2mm version for outside?

The Boostic might be a good shoe then.

[User deactivated.]

I went back to check the bananafingers sizing calculator and it reckons if I wear Instincts in a 7 then I should wear Mago's in a 6.5  that is incomprehensible to me.

Don’t believe everything you read on t’interweb.

What’s the heel issue? Are they baggy? The Shamans (lace ups, the Velcro are too soft imo) have a shallow heel. This annoys me because I prefer the deeper heel cup but might suit you?

Every shoe I've tried has dead space underneath the heel. The back and sides of the heel are usually ok.

If the Shaman toe is anything like the Phantom or Oracle (which are like a solution) then I won't like it. The rubber extends a few mm past the end of my toe and it kills all feeling for me.

I would consider the new Mago to be a stiff shoe compared to what I'm used to.

[Fultonius]

I don't boulder anywhere near as hard as you, (7B max just now) but I do have similar size feet and bodyweight. I can fit 9.5 leather brogues, 10 in standard trainers, 10.5 in running shoes.

I used to wear mk1 Boostics in 43.5 and the edging was amazing, but I did get big toe knuckle pain from too long in that position (talking doing hour long trad insights, multipitch alpine route in the dolomites etc.). But it was starting to get chronic...

I now am almost exclusively in instincts (vs, vsr and lace),  but I have dragos, chimeras, new Boostics. All in 43.5. I could probably squeeze into 43 instincts if was desperate, but I honestly never feel like I need to go that low any more - my current project at Dumby is Endurance, 10 degrees overhanging and one of the hard moves is pressing really hard into a shite hold. With the wrong shoes I can't touch it, but instincts whether it's the lace, VS or a resoled VS are fine. Vsr is actually a bit too soft and I notice it.

When I moved to softer shoes than the boostic, I found it took a while to build foot strength, but once I did I actually find I have more options as, in the past, I was always strongly biased towards edges and avoided smears. I now feel that I can milk smears a lot better, but have no issues on edges.

oh, and my heels are fine in those shoes at that size.

To me, it seems like your feet are not scarpa shaped and hence needing to downsize way too much to get performance?

But, as a boulderer rather than a route climber, you might get away with it?

@barrows good to know the magis have the same floppy tow as the Boostics, I'll be avoiding them. I actually ground the toe rubber right off the Boostics to see the construction. Was considering asking a resolver to add a 0.5mm midsole to rescue some kind of use out of them, otherwise I'll just be binning them rather than resoling....

[mrjonathanr]

If the Shaman toe is anything like the Phantom or Oracle (which are like a solution) then I won't like it.

JustI compared them, side by side: Shaman toe is exactly the same as the old Oracle.

Was considering asking a resolver to add a 0.5mm midsole to rescue some kind of use out of them, otherwise I'll just be binning them rather than resoling....

Hey Fultonuus, post on here if you do, would be interested to know how that goes!

[User deactivated.]

Had an afternoon trip to the wall and Go Outdoors to try on shoes. Although both had limited stock and sizes I learnt that going up a whopping 1.5 sizes to what I normally wear was still probably snug enough out of the box. When applying pressure as though to smear, each shoe flattened out in a natural way that I think my aggressive downsizing has been preventing. I imagine after break in, this fit might be too loose, so perhaps 1 size up would be a nice compromise.

Anyway, the Instinct VSR, Evolv Shaman 3, and Tenaya Indalo all fit similar ish. All fit fine in the toe but all had some dead space under the heel, with the Tenaya having the most.

The best fitting shoes I tried were the original La Sportiva Solution and the Unparallel Flagship. Both heels fit well, but the Flagship heel seemed better since the solution is just a solid ball. As mentioned previously, I didn't get on well with the Solution style toebox on the Evolv Phantom (a few mm of rubber in front of where the toe ends). Would the original be any different? It probably won't smear great either. The Flagship has a slightly less beak like toebox, but I think the shoe might be a bit too soft after breaking in. The search continues but I'm getting closer. 

[Paul B]

Where are you based? I'd recommend going to a good independent shop. One of the most frustrating experiences of my life was selling someone a pair of shoes in CragX. They tried on a ridiculous number of shoes (models and sizes), ignored any advice offered and left with a pair of the female specific VCS that were so undersized the black flaps under the velcro wouldn't even meet.

[MischaHY]

I lived this exact issue and for me it was related to not dropping my heels properly on footholds which meant I was loading the arch of the foot instead of the calf. I found this out by accident because I climbed a whole winter in an old pair of resoled Skwama and had to learn how to stand properly. Once I’d learnt this I went up a whole size in Sportiva and have way better confidence on all techy stuff, way less pain and can still do all heel hooks I need.

Vague rules are Sportiva should be 1.5-2.5 sizes down from street depending on feel, Scarpa should be around 1-1.5 sizes down.

Hope this helps.

[User deactivated.]

Where are you based? I'd recommend going to a good independent shop. One of the most frustrating experiences of my life was selling someone a pair of shoes in CragX. They tried on a ridiculous number of shoes (models and sizes), ignored any advice offered and left with a pair of the female specific VCS that were so undersized the black flaps under the velcro wouldn't even meet.

I'm in Leeds. I've been considering the 2.5 hour round trip to Hathersage Outside based on the recommendation they have a large selection. Is there anywhere better / closer?

[teestub]

The Depot Armley have a decent range

[yetix]

The showroom for rock run I believe has the largest selection of boots in the uk (pretty sure the sales guy told me this when I visited to collect a pad a few weeks ago). It's in Milnthorpe if I remember correctly

[Paul B]

I've heard the same.

I'd hope you'd struggle to go too far wrong with Outside.

Boot demos can also be quite good.

[User deactivated.]

More shoe trying...

The best heel on my foot was on the Unparallel TN Pro, which also had the joint best toebox alongside the Instinct VSR. It seems quite similar to a VSR overall, except being slightly stiffer, having more toe hook rubber and a slightly higher angle toe box.

As much as I wanted to buy the sexy off-white limited edition VSR's, I couldn't argue with the overall feel of the TN Pro and bought them. Hopefully it works and I don't run back to my ridiculously undersized Theory's!

Allegedly the Unparallel Souped Up is built on a similar last so I may have to order some of those to try for my soft pair...

For anyone interested in sizing: TN Pro size 9 = Instinct size 8

[User deactivated.]

I've now climbed in my new shoes a handful of times, inside and out, and I'd recommend this process of going to a shop with a large selection and trying on ALL the shoes to everyone.

I've always favoured very soft shoes, and I realise now this was because I was downsizing so far that I was essentially turning all shoes into supportive shoes, and choosing the softest models brought back a bit of needed sensitivity. However, in properly sized shoes that didn't fit my feet very well, I lost all feeling due to air gaps and not having my toe close enough to the rock. Now i'm in shoes that perfectly fit my feet, and despite them being stiffer than i'm used to, they feel more sensitive while having more power on small edges, and I can keep them on without discomfort. I'm yet to find any downsides.

[SA Chris]

What was your final choice, and how far downsized.

[SA Chris]

I now wear solution comps at size 44, my feet have never been this happy, and I feel like cinderella, and I've gotten some hard heelhooks done too. In 3 months of font, I did not once blame the shoes for anything neither wished anything was different, I don't even take my shoes off, and the other day I was doing 100kg squats in the shoes, felt great.

moral of the story, it is worth trying bigger shoes, also to take into account that you want to do this sport for more 30-40+ years, you deffo need to have comfortable shoes. If you find there is some specific problem that just does not work with your comfortable shoes, have a backup shoes that are optimized for cases where the comfortable shoes fail.

This was my end point I reached too. I now wear a "reasonably" sized pair of solution comps, which are great for edging on nothings, climbing steep ground, and pretty good for smearing where needed. Toe hooking is very good, heel hooking is probably the lowest scoring.

I no longer lose toenails at regular intervals, can happily wear them for a session without having to take them off all the time because feet are sore and arches are cramping. And my feet are never sore enough after a day of climbing that I can't run, and usually my feet are OK in the shoes after a long run.

[User deactivated.]

What was your final choice, and how far downsized.

Unparallel TN Pro (the yellow one) in a size 9 UK. This felt about equal in size to an Instinct VSR in a size 8 but has a better fit for me. I'm a street shoe 9.5/10 UK (more often a 10).