If you aren't trolling (im still unconvinced!) then I think suffice to say it wouldn't surprise me if nobody else in the country shared your perspective. It's totally and utterly wrong to think you can claim a trad ascent by clipping protection in a knotted rope.
Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead). The point I'm admittedly getting worked up about is the specific one about a trad lead being valid if you lower a rope from the top and clip into that on the way up, to the extent that if one did that they could claim a first ascent. That falls well outside the stylistic grey zones we've articulated; it is simply such poor style that it doesn't count as a lead. As JB has said, it is a top rope.
Im sure Bradders will correct me if Im wrong, but I think what he's getting at is that style doesn't fit very nicely in to neat little 'sport', 'trad' and 'bouldering' buckets. There's a wide range of stuff that goes on that fits somewhere on a spectrum from good to bad style, with onsight solo with a copy of the bible rammed up your arse on one end, to chipping your way up a 3+ on top rope on the other.People just need to be clear about what they're doing, not getting together lynch mobs because Bransby used a 2x4 to protect the start of baron greenback, or P widdy using bamboo draws on the same route.
Thank you Remus, yes; that is exactly what I'm trying to articulate (badly).
People just need to be clear about what they're doing, not getting together lynch mobs because Bransby used a 2x4 to protect the start of baron greenback, or P widdy using bamboo draws on the same route.
Is that so stylistically different from the knotted rope?
Saying a particular style is valid and correct seems to have poor longevity.
I don't think it makes sense to say it's invalid though, just bad style.
I agree that I wouldn't count a knotted rope from the top as a trad ascent, but i wouldn't say the ascent itself is invalid as the person has climbed from the bottom to the top. It's just a poor style, somewhere between a top rope and a lead. Same as if someone has top roped something or even aided it. They've climbed it, just in a poor style.To be honest I suspect we're just arguing over terminology here. I totally agree it'd be rubbish style, and it people aren't out and about doing this because I suspect it's a pretty boring way to climb.
For sure it's good to challenge the status quo and there are good and less good ways to go about it. Franco's peripheral justifications keep wriggling around - 'the approach is so epic', then, 'no it's actually not that big deal' (it really isn't a difficult approach, and could easily be made even simpler/safer).That's really unfair. I merely described the two normal approaches. I never said it was epic. Once you've got it dialled, you can get to the base of the meltdown in 90 secondsish. But is does still require an abseil / traxion out and I'm not sure the meltdown is clipstickable. It's more faff than sorting out the knots wad my point. 'all the trad routes are being bolted' - except the route he wanted to do as trad hadn't been bolted. (until he claimed it in a style that requires fixed protection and it got bolted as a result!).Obviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc. 'People only have a problem because it's hard', then 'people only have a problem because I publicised it'. Nope, people are pretty much only taking issue because it's a deterioration in style; unhelpful to other climbers wanting to climb; messy; that sets an awful precedent that can easily be applied anywhere else to the detriment of the activity; and introduces stylistic 'trad ownership' over routes in an area which isn't a trad-only area - it's always been a mixed ethic of trad/sport/mixed routes. That's an opinion. I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise. What happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...Quote from: FrancoI really wish we could have this debate face to face - I just think your argument is non-existent.I live 5 minutes down the hill from bus stop quarry in Fachwen. I'll happily put the kettle on and we can chat, you'd be made welcome and I hope you'd find me friendly and open minded to your views. Or a wider debate, but face to face debates with large groups of people with counter opinions are notoriously not actually good for articulating nuanced points - I think mass meetings are good for the emotional aspect of getting together and seeing we don't have horns in our heads, but not actually for making the nuanced points that are the nub of the issue. Lots of people don't like speaking up in public or have trouble expressing clearly in speaking what they could in writing. See BMC area meetings for e.g., more about social/emotional feel-good than actually getting into the weeds of an issue.Last thing - it's really funny and ironic that one of us has history of physically removing bolts from sport routes in twll mawr to preserve a historic trad route (Hamadryad)... the same person also has history of removing every bolt and peg from an existing 30m sport route to create what will be a genuinely brilliant 30m safe E8 with zero pieces of fixed gear. And re-positioning someone else's sport route bolts to preserve the feel of an esoteric but good E5 in Penmaen Bach Quarry.It isn't the person you'd expect from reading this thread.. It also wasn't publicised to build a profile. Just pointing out you're not the only person who loves trad and will bend the status quo to preserve it, many of us do.
I really wish we could have this debate face to face - I just think your argument is non-existent.
[Don't bring me into this, I've been watching from the sidelines deliberately keeping quiet.ps the 2x4 was placed on lead so I stand by it being a completely valid ascent of the highest ethical standards.
Of course we can agree there is a range of styles. (although the specific example of Whittaker on Greenback is actually in the best tradition of trad, in that he placed them on the lead).
There is a complete sliding scale from a draw, to a double draw, to extended sling, to this. You could actually lead this with a couple of very long slings instead of the rope.
That's really unfair.
Obviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc.
That's an opinion. I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise.
What happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...
And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣
Quote from: Franctroll on November 13, 2023, 04:28:48 pmThat's really unfair.Everything's unfair when you play the victim. As previously said by others, own your shit.Untrue then. The argument was that it was loads of effort to hang a rope. I said getting onto the route is far more effort. You're suggesting I'm changing my position to suit my argument. I'm not. Quote from: Frantroll on November 13, 2023, 04:28:48 pmObviously I'm talking about the eaiser routes like windows, medium etc. You mean routes that were done when you were a toddler or earlier? That's life.. the UK's covered in routes all over sea-cliffs that were done in the 70s-2000's in poor style with fixed gear (imo); and left us with a sub-optimal mess of corroded crap which we had no say in. That's a bigger an issue than a bold slate slab getting bolted in an area that climbers agreed works best with a mix of fully bolted, partially bolted (runout), and gear. Quote from: Franctroll on November 13, 2023, 04:28:48 pmThat's an opinion. I see it the complete opposite. My solution allows sport with minimal faff and some designer danger trad at least - a compromise. It's an opinion shared by a huge majority of people . Your 'solution' is a solution to a problem that doesn't exist for anyone else except you! But in the 60s your opinion would have only been held by you. What I'm trying to do is futureproof the solution, so that when bold Trad comes back round, we haven't fucked all the best lines up.Watching you at work is a bit like watching someone advocating blowing up a vaccine factory as a 'solution' to their strongly-held belief that there's a problem with everyone in vaccine factories being lizard overlords in disguise trying to inject us with microchips.That's an opinion.. Quote from: FranctrollWhat happened with the bolting of the Meltdown is that sport claimed ownership over that piece of rock. Now you mention it, what would be really interesting actually is to try and reduce the number of bolts on the meltdown and make it fit better with the slate ethic of designer danger, like all the other routes on that wall/ the rainbow/ california etc. I hadn't thought of that actually...Troll mode engaged again then? Gosh yes that would be a positive move - start a bolt-chopping / re-bolting war on other people's routes in the slate quarries just because you hold an ideologically extreme view of climbing that 99.9% of climbers don't agree with. If you went down that route it could be another piece of evidence in a growing portfolio, of your absolute disregard for anyone's views other than your own.And you're definitely showing your true troll colours now. Talking balls about chopping bolts to make designer danger routes? Because this was your reply when I suggested to you that you made a complete bollocks of your new route by not spotting the potential for it to be a classic 'designer danger route':I'd suggest it is you who has a shifting argument. You say I should have done a designer danger route, then are outraged when I agree. I'm not in troll mode at all. I know how provocative it would be to to start chopping bolts, but, honestly, I do think we're nearly at that point with hard trad. Just like people were outraged with the first bolts being placed, you may be outraged by the chopping, but I really don't think you've got your head around how many bold Trad climbs have been destroyed by bolting. Both chopping and bolting are in a sense vandalism, but to act all holier than thou because you currently hold a majority opinion (although I am getting some messages of support on this) is at best fairly narrow minded. Quote from: Franctroll on November 10, 2023, 07:21:22 pmAnd the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣Tiresome troll.
p.s. I agree a knotted rope from the top would be very poor style on trad. Obviously it's way easier than a normal trad ascent. I don't think it makes sense to say it's invalid though, just bad style.