Quote from: Wellsy on November 09, 2023, 04:00:18 pmQuote from: Teaboy on November 09, 2023, 03:48:16 pmQuote from: Wellsy on November 09, 2023, 02:22:36 pmIf Caff now says this is 9a and Meltdown is more like 8c+ then that's hardly Franco's fault.I thought Caff originally gave it 8c+/9a on account of the fact he was unsure as he had little to go on (had he repeated the Big Bang at that point?)Sure but then it says 9a on UKC, 8a.nu and such, like I think that saying that it got 9a is defensible.What UKC or Jens think of the grade is 100% irrelevant. If Caff gave it 8c+/9a then it 'got' 8c+/9a.
Quote from: Teaboy on November 09, 2023, 03:48:16 pmQuote from: Wellsy on November 09, 2023, 02:22:36 pmIf Caff now says this is 9a and Meltdown is more like 8c+ then that's hardly Franco's fault.I thought Caff originally gave it 8c+/9a on account of the fact he was unsure as he had little to go on (had he repeated the Big Bang at that point?)Sure but then it says 9a on UKC, 8a.nu and such, like I think that saying that it got 9a is defensible.
Quote from: Wellsy on November 09, 2023, 02:22:36 pmIf Caff now says this is 9a and Meltdown is more like 8c+ then that's hardly Franco's fault.I thought Caff originally gave it 8c+/9a on account of the fact he was unsure as he had little to go on (had he repeated the Big Bang at that point?)
If Caff now says this is 9a and Meltdown is more like 8c+ then that's hardly Franco's fault.
This is coming across as Andy F style anti-Franciscan zealotry, JB.He's done Meltdown, he's now done a variation on Meltdown which he reckons is substantially harder. He's offered a grade. It's not unreasonable. If Caff downgrades it and says it's easier than Meltdown then so what? An FA grade being wrong is hardly a surprise.If this is easier than Meltdown it makes me wonder why Meltdown didn't take this route in the first place? Is it a less obvious line on the wall?
Quote from: Franco on November 10, 2023, 04:08:34 pmThat being bolted was a total gut punch - I actually shed a tear when I saw these bolts, it was really, really sad to see something like that being destroyed in that way. I don't expect anyone else to see it my way (which maybe even makes it even sadder), but that is the strength of feeling I had towards that challenge. It wasn't a piss take or frivolous. Perhaps I shouldn't have publicised the fact I had done it sport style, but I thought people would be interested. You definitely shouldn't have claimed it as a sport route if you feel that strongly about bolts being put in it
That being bolted was a total gut punch - I actually shed a tear when I saw these bolts, it was really, really sad to see something like that being destroyed in that way. I don't expect anyone else to see it my way (which maybe even makes it even sadder), but that is the strength of feeling I had towards that challenge. It wasn't a piss take or frivolous. Perhaps I shouldn't have publicised the fact I had done it sport style, but I thought people would be interested.
The main thing that seems to have got people's goat is that it’s hard.
I don't really mean it's a way of avoiding things getting bolts, just that it's not a problem. Why would it be an issue for someone to put a knotted rope on pull my daisy and post on insta that they'd done an F5 sport route? You don't really seem to have an argument against this, other than it's ugly. And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣
And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣
Exactly, apart from I think it's easy to do it as a sport route with the hanging rope. I'm not saying people shouldn't climb it as a sport route, just that adding extra bolts is unnecessary. And if bolts were to be added, there should have been a discussion about it. Like I say, there's some hypocrisy from me there, but basically it was pretty easy to extend the bolts a few metres, so no big deal. Why not fully bolt all the other lines in the quarries like this? The main thing that seems to have got people's goat is that it's hard?Also, I'm not against creating sport routes, just against drilling rocks. If the bolts are already there, I'll use them. I don't think that's unreasonable
If you step back to think through what you're trying to say here it's along the lines of: 'I want credit for the first ascent of a sport route that I'm ideologically against creating, AND, I want to dictate to others that this route be kept free of bolts so that I can later attempt to do it as a trad route and claim another first ascent'. Never mind anyone else wanting to repeat your sport route that you've publicised...This isn't how it works, and if other first ascensionists went around with this mindset climbing would be much the shitter for it. I want the moon on a stick for me and me only...
History has shown us that people who mainly climb in one area or in one style of routes often get their gradar out of kilter. Franco isn't immune to this. Clearly he's climbed something hard (in an admittedly odd style, again), but his painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum shows up at these times.