[Wellsy]

If Caff now says this is 9a and Meltdown is more like 8c+ then that's hardly Franco's fault.

I thought Caff originally gave it 8c+/9a on account of the fact he was unsure as he had little to go on (had he repeated the Big Bang at that point?)

Sure but then it says 9a on UKC, 8a.nu and such, like I think that saying that it got 9a is defensible.

What UKC or Jens think of the grade is 100% irrelevant. If Caff gave it 8c+/9a then it 'got' 8c+/9a.

That is fair. Honestly I wasn't aware he specifically gave it the / grade

[northern yob]

Good on ya Franco, nice reply, and good to see some justification and your thought process regarding what’s gone on…. Just to be clear, I might’ve said I wouldn’t believe your “I never used it honest” reply but that was just me being a twat.

I absolutely believe what you are saying and can relate to your thinking…. Being a miserable old twat, I’m against filling holds which have appeared naturally to force a sequence no matter how cool the sequence is, but each to their own, it’s good that your being open about it all.

Seems like you’ve kinda shot yourself in the foot with the bolts! Like you say you’d have been better off not really saying much if you had aspirations to do it on trad…..

Don’t be put off, like bonjoy said you could still do that and chop them. It would make an even better history section in the guide for me!!

Enjoy El cap, it’s the best place on earth….

[northern yob]

Also it’s a bit of a contradiction in my eyes being so anti bolt/drill yet being fine with filling a natural hold in to force a sequence( to me  it’s as bad as chipping)

[Andy F]

This is coming across as Andy F style anti-Franciscan zealotry, JB.
He's done Meltdown, he's now done a variation on Meltdown which he reckons is substantially harder. He's offered a grade. It's not unreasonable. If Caff downgrades it and says it's easier than Meltdown then so what? An FA grade being wrong is hardly a surprise.

If this is easier than Meltdown it makes me wonder why Meltdown didn't take this route in the first place? Is it a less obvious line on the wall?

History has shown us that people who mainly climb in one area or in one style of routes often get their gradar out of kilter. Franco isn't immune to this. Clearly he's climbed something hard (in an admittedly odd style, again), but his painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum shows up at these times.

[petejh]

That being bolted was a total gut punch - I actually shed a tear when I saw these bolts, it was really, really sad to see something like that being destroyed in that way. I don't expect anyone else to see it my way (which maybe even makes it even sadder), but that is the strength of feeling I had towards that challenge. It wasn't a piss take or frivolous. Perhaps I shouldn't have publicised the fact I had done it sport style, but I thought people would be interested.

You definitely shouldn't have claimed it as a sport route if you feel that strongly about bolts being put in it

Good effort replying Franco. This point above^ is it though, isn't it? Your long post mostly boils down to: 'I think this would be an amazing trad route, which I didn't do, and now someone's bolted it against my will'.

I suggest that it's been bolted against your will because you claimed it as a first ascent of a new sport route! So, why report a first ascent? If, in your mind, the first ascent was still to be done as the 'true challenge' trad route?

If you step back to think through what you're trying to say here it's along the lines of: 'I want credit for the first ascent of a sport route that I'm ideologically against creating, AND, I want to dictate to others that this route be kept free of bolts so that I can later attempt to do it as a trad route and claim another first ascent'. Never mind anyone else wanting to repeat your sport route that you've publicised...

This isn't how it works, and if other first ascensionists went around with this mindset climbing would be much the shitter for it. I want the moon on a stick for me and me only...

It's been suggested in this thread that it looks like you want the satisfaction and recognition of a first ascent, but without committing to the hard choices that the route presents a first ascensionist because of its difficulty and lack of protection - of either creating a sport route (which you haven't), or doing a nails and bold trad route (which you haven't). Cakeism, much?   

That's the nub of it, everything else around it is window dressing.

[ali k]

What Pete said.

[Franco]

"If you step back to think through what you're trying to say here it's along the lines of: 'I want credit for the first ascent of a sport route that I'm ideologically against creating, AND, I want to dictate to others that this route be kept free of bolts so that I can later attempt to do it as a trad route and claim another first ascent'. Never mind anyone else wanting to repeat your sport route that you've publicised..."

Exactly,  apart from I think it's easy to do it as a sport route with the hanging rope. I'm not saying people shouldn't climb it as a sport route, just that adding extra bolts is unnecessary. And if bolts were to be added, there should have been a discussion about it.

Like I say, there's some hypocrisy from me there, but basically it was pretty easy to extend the bolts a few metres, so no big deal. Why not fully bolt all the other lines in the quarries like this? The main thing that seems to have got people's goat is that it's hard?

Also, I'm not against creating sport routes, just against drilling rocks. If the bolts are already there, I'll use them. I don't think that's unreasonable

[petejh]

The main thing that seems to have got people's goat is that it’s hard.

No, I suggest that the main issue people have is that you’re trying to force through a style of new routing,  that if we all used - and it would be laughably easy for us all to do on other routes what you’ve done -  would make climbing a crapper, even more contrived than it already is, and more selfish a pastime.

This isn’t personal btw, we’d probably get on well as I dislike rules too! But a lot of the time the rules work and and make the best of an imperfect situation.

[Franco]

I don't see how it would be a problem for people to dangle 'bolt ropes' down trad routes. Obviously if you use it to assist by taking weight off that's cheating, but you can do that with sport (defo on the meltdown!).

As long as people chose esoteric routes so they don't damage the rock too much, I'd say fill your boots. It's not a complicated line to decipher between this and top roping. In fact, there's a hard project at Danby crag I'd like to do this way. It would be a bit of a shit trad route, as it's bold and a bit squeezed, but would make a great sport route.

Better that than everything getting bolted.

[petejh]

If that's your argument: 'better to dangle knotted ropes to claim first ascents of bold routes than everything getting bolted', then it's a very weak argument - for the simple fact that everything does not get bolted; and everything didn't need your knotted ropes to prevent everything getting bolted. Your Dewin Stone route wasn't bolted before you got to it was it!

And if you'd had the nerve and skill to do it on trad as you dreamed, it never would have been bolted. But you didn't, so you fudged it to bag a newie. And by that act you got it bolted because that's essentially how you climbed it. We've all been there wanting to bag the new route, you're just more creative and more attention-seeking with the fudging

I also can't ignore that you missed a brilliant opportunity to make a modern classic designer danger route - by allowing yourself to stick in the odd bolt to make it really scary, but just protected enough to convince yourself to go for it, that would have been right in keeping with the slate ethic and could have been one of the best. But you tripped yourself up with your... whatever it is.

[Franco]

I don't really mean it's a way of avoiding things getting bolts, just that it's not a problem. Why would it be an issue for someone to put a knotted rope on pull my daisy and post on insta that they'd done an F5 sport route? You don't really seem to have an argument against this, other than it's ugly.

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

[shark]

You actually expected potential repeat ascentionists to do it with a knotted rope? 

[petejh]

Think you've gone into troll-mode now Franco. There's no 'outrage' doesn't need to be involved in a lot of people thinking something different to what you think. Bemusement, yeah perhaps a lot of that. I think we're done here.

[SA Chris]

Re: the hanging rope vs the new bolts; how many 'draws were attached to the rope and how many new bolts have been placed? I am not judging either way, just want to know.

[Franco]

I think 4 knots and 5 bolts?

[webbo]

I don't really mean it's a way of avoiding things getting bolts, just that it's not a problem. Why would it be an issue for someone to put a knotted rope on pull my daisy and post on insta that they'd done an F5 sport route? You don't really seem to have an argument against this, other than it's ugly.

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

Dan, have you created another accounts.😉

[Andy F]

And the idea that me placing a couple of bolts and creating a designer danger line would have gone down better is hilarious. That really is classic UKB, shifting which tiny ethical issue to get most outraged by 🤣

Designer danger is the literal fucking history of slate climbing. FFS, if ever there was an opportunity to continue that trend you've completed bolloxed it.

[andy moles]

Exactly,  apart from I think it's easy to do it as a sport route with the hanging rope. I'm not saying people shouldn't climb it as a sport route, just that adding extra bolts is unnecessary. And if bolts were to be added, there should have been a discussion about it.

Like I say, there's some hypocrisy from me there, but basically it was pretty easy to extend the bolts a few metres, so no big deal. Why not fully bolt all the other lines in the quarries like this? The main thing that seems to have got people's goat is that it's hard?

Also, I'm not against creating sport routes, just against drilling rocks. If the bolts are already there, I'll use them. I don't think that's unreasonable

I think the piece you're missing here, or don't care about, is that there are some unspoken conventions around claiming a new sport route - namely that someone else can turn up with a rope and set of draws, maybe a clipstick, and have a go. Those aren't very demanding conditions, but if they're not met it's not really a proper sport route.

If the convention changed and everyone started doing what you've done here, we'd soon have a confusing shitshow around what was actually equipped and how easily knotted rope could even be set up - not everything is straight up and off vert, so you'd end up with all kinds of wack edge case shenanigans.

Edit: afterthought. It's also just occurred to me that if people were claiming trad routes like Pull My Daisy as a knotted rope 'sport' lead, how long before people start saying 'that one's better as sport than trad actually' and down the line we just streamline the process and end up with more bolts as a result? Speculative, but another reason this might not be a precedent you really want to set.

[Bradders]

If you step back to think through what you're trying to say here it's along the lines of: 'I want credit for the first ascent of a sport route that I'm ideologically against creating, AND, I want to dictate to others that this route be kept free of bolts so that I can later attempt to do it as a trad route and claim another first ascent'. Never mind anyone else wanting to repeat your sport route that you've publicised...

This isn't how it works, and if other first ascensionists went around with this mindset climbing would be much the shitter for it. I want the moon on a stick for me and me only...

Or, to put it another way and take a further step back, you're essentially questioning the legitimacy of what Franco did because 4 quickdraws were attached to a rope instead of bolts....

[Andy F]

Let's be honest. Climbing a route next to a hanging rope, clipping quickdraws on knots is totally unacceptable.

There are ethics and rules for different areas. On slate you can place bolts, or choose to use gear. Doing otherwise shows you have little regard for the local ethics.

Franco, you've obviously climbed something quite difficult in the most ridiculous way possible. Well done on the difficulty, but stop being a dick and bending the accepted rules to fit your own perception of what is acceptable.

[teestub]

I hadn't seen any of the vids of the set up, there's one here https://www.instagram.com/p/CsR5-l8ADGV/

[Hoseyb]

I'm feeling completely neutral about this, and put any negative consequences that have occurred down to a failure to communicate.
Twll Mawr is a special place with a deep history almost Tolkeinesque. Layers upon layers of development. I'm sure there's more to come. I got very disappointed and pretty much gave up trad climbing after a line I'd lived with and dreamt about sprung bolts days before my ground up ascent. This was mainly through a lack of clear communication between the motley crew of slateheads at the time. My communication and theirs.
This current kerfuffle smacks of the same, so I'm sorry for you Franco.
I'm sure the slate will provide  the adventure of your dreams yet still. Just keep us in the loop.

[Hoseyb]

Andy
As I said earlier this was going on in the eighties in the slate quarries too. So therefore there's local precedent. I just think there's been some poor communication, and possibly ( like myself in the 00s when I was almost the only active slatehead) a slightly squewed sense of ownership

[Andy F]

Hose,

Climbing a line next to a fixed rope provided unlimited gear is tantamount to top roping IMHO.

We've all done very bold stuff, Franco has made his name doing it. This route, claimed this way is frankly pathetic. Climb it properly or not at all.

[kingholmesy]

History has shown us that people who mainly climb in one area or in one style of routes often get their gradar out of kilter. Franco isn't immune to this. Clearly he's climbed something hard (in an admittedly odd style, again), but his painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum shows up at these times.

I’m not sure that’s entirely fair. AFAIK Franco’s done some hard-ish stuff not only in the NY Moors but also at Nescliffe, on Cornish granite and now on slate. I know there’s been some doubts over the grades of some of his FAs and repeats, but I think saying he has a “painful lack of experience across the broader climbing spectrum” is probably overstating it. Sure he is stronger in some styles than others, but aren’t most climbers?