[User deactivated.]

From my reading, natural interventions to boost HGH (testosterone is also a common one) seem to be short lived; an initial spike followed by the body trying to achieve homeostasis. If you want high GH levels that are more likely to be clinically effective, have you considered injecting it? (if it can be acquired legally) I'm not recommending it as I have no idea what the risks are but it will obviously be a more effective way to raise HGH if that is your objective.

No idea if it will be helpful for your particular knee issue, but if you can ignore the silly name, 'knees over toes guy' on YouTube seems to be the place to go for advice on working towards healthy knees. Many people have allegedly avoided surgery by doing the things he recommends.

[petejh]

Thanks for the link I'll look him up. I'm defo not considering injecting HGH! I'm more interested in understanding if this is something that can be improved through lifestyle.

[petejh]

From my reading, natural interventions to boost HGH (testosterone is also a common one) seem to be short lived; an initial spike followed by the body trying to achieve homeostasis.

Just to go back to this. This was my understanding too - a short-lived spike in hormone following stressor (exercise, fasting, physical attack etc.).

However this study suggests that fasting might change the duration of an increase in HGH levels (and associated signalers). Look at fig 1 B, for comparison between exercise and fasting on HGH levels. Discussion in the study reports increased area under the curve for HGH in the fasting state, in other words a more prolonged low-level release of HGH, leading to cumulatively higher levels of HGH versus 'just exercise'.
https://academic.oup.com/jcem/article/95/9/E64/2835165

''We found that exercise induces distinct GH bursts after 30 min followed by increased STAT5b phosphorylation after 90 min and increased IGF-I mRNA expression after 270 min. This sequence is in full accordance with studies showing that exogenous GH administration leads to rapid initial STAT5 activation followed by IGF mRNA after some hours (9, 10, 15). Recently one study (14) has shown increased STAT5 phosphorylation 30 min after exercise in humans. The study, however, did not include a control situation without exercise, and it is uncertain whether a needle biopsy per se may increase stress hormone levels (16).

Fasting is characterized by complex enhancement of GH pulse frequency and amplitude and decreased blood concentrations of IGF-I (11). Our design did not capture distinct synchronous GH bursts in the eight individuals studied, so it is not surprising that we only observed a tendency toward increased STAT5 phosphorylation. In addition to the ups and downs of disorderly GH secretion, increased levels of FFAs may inhibit STAT5 phosphorylation (17). It is all the more striking that IGF-I mRNA expression in muscle remained elevated in both biopsies after 72 h of fasting, and the expression may be addressed to the overall elevated GH level. Data on GH signal transduction during fasting are sparse. One study has shown decreased STAT5 phosphorylation after a GH bolus during fasting (13), but the study did not include direct assessment of the effects of fasting, and the finding of decreased GH activation of STAT5 could relate to FFA inhibition of phosphorylation (17).''

[Fiend]

''We found that exercise induces distinct GH bursts after 30 min followed by increased STAT5b phosphorylation after 90 min and increased IGF-I mRNA expression after 270 min. This sequence is in full accordance with studies showing that exogenous GH administration leads to rapid initial STAT5 activation followed by IGF mRNA after some hours (9, 10, 15). Recently one study (14) has shown increased STAT5 phosphorylation 30 min after exercise in humans. The study, however, did not include a control situation without exercise, and it is uncertain whether a needle biopsy per se may increase stress hormone levels (16).

Fasting is characterized by complex enhancement of GH pulse frequency and amplitude and decreased blood concentrations of IGF-I (11). Our design did not capture distinct synchronous GH bursts in the eight individuals studied, so it is not surprising that we only observed a tendency toward increased STAT5 phosphorylation. In addition to the ups and downs of disorderly GH secretion, increased levels of FFAs may inhibit STAT5 phosphorylation (17). It is all the more striking that IGF-I mRNA expression in muscle remained elevated in both biopsies after 72 h of fasting, and the expression may be addressed to the overall elevated GH level. Data on GH signal transduction during fasting are sparse. One study has shown decreased STAT5 phosphorylation after a GH bolus during fasting (13), but the study did not include direct assessment of the effects of fasting, and the finding of decreased GH activation of STAT5 could relate to FFA inhibition of phosphorylation (17).''

Yup, I still have to avoid heelhooks.

[chillax]

Yup, I still have to avoid heelhooks.

Me too. Mines eased off loads though. Can walk/climb/boulder fine as long as I don't do right heel hooks, and can't quite run yet. I'm sure some of the physio stuff went towards recovery, but reckon the majority was just time/rest. Feels like I took ages off, but was only about a month. Time perception is weird. Hope yours is feeling good Fiend

[mrjonathanr]

It is all the more striking that IGF-I mRNA expression in muscle remained elevated in both biopsies after 72h if fasting, may be addressed to the overall elevated GH level.

Are you planning to eat nothing for 3 days at a time to fix your knee? Seems quite an unorthodox strategy for tissue repair tbh

[petejh]

Is that a serious question? I'm assuming not but you never know.

[mrjonathanr]

Well not exactly, but reading your quote (I didn't dive into the linked article) the measurable improvement after a 3 day fast seemed a bit irrelevant to likely real world scenarios. Maybe I missed something?

I totally get why anything that might shift the dial is worth considering when you're injured btw, injuries utterly suck.

[petejh]

You missed that it's something I'm doing 1 - 2 times per week (for 16hrs)*.


* I didn't mention the 16hrs bit, although I didn't think I needed to.

[mrjonathanr]

Well if impact correlates with time 
Good luck with it, let us know if you think it helps.

[Duma]

Not sure most people would think of missing breakfast once or twice a week as fasting, I do that by accident most weeks!

[Fultonius]

Not sure most people would think of missing breakfast once or twice a week as fasting, I do that by accident most weeks!

I guess terminology has changed. There seems to be mounting evidence that giving your digestive system a long break can have various benefits, and a longer break can just be from 7pm to 10am, but extending to midday might be even better.

I mean, we all fast every night and break that fast in the morning. Breakfast, the most I important meal of the day, but only partaken by 1/3* of the world's population.

*or some other low percentage that I can't be bothered to look up. And it's actually incorrect since by the definition of "breakfast", EVERYONE eats breakfast, just at different times.

[petejh]

Not sure most people would think of missing breakfast once or twice a week as fasting, I do that by accident most weeks!

Very droll. Yeah it doesn't sound like much does it.

However that isn't exactly how it goes - the idea is you have a feeding window of 8hrs, then a 'fast' for 16hrs, followed by workout, followed by a day of 800 calories, then back to normal.

edit: and what Fultonius said. There's plenty of research out there on the various benefits of giving your digestive system a longer break (either with or without occasionally lower calories) than is nowadays typical in a western lifestyle. 

[petejh]

No idea if it will be helpful for your particular knee issue, but if you can ignore the silly name, 'knees over toes guy' on YouTube seems to be the place to go for advice on working towards healthy knees. Many people have allegedly avoided surgery by doing the things he recommends.

Just to follow-up on this.. Have been following the 'rehab your fucked knee' protocol from 'kneesovertoesguy' for 3 weeks. Good shout! I've been trying to get out every other day walking backwards up the steep hill by my house (steep enough that I guess it's not too far off the effort of the weighted sled pull), tib raises and lunge squats. The exercises feel like they really work the right structures in the knee and hopefully get the fluids in and out of the areas. My knee is defo feeling better whether due to Dr time or Dr walking uphill backwards.