[User deactivated.]

After going back and forth for a while, I decided to post a new problem to my Instagram last night and it stirred up some discussion due to being on private land and its proximity to houses. I think UKB is a better forum for this type of discussion, so i'll add as much factual information as possible.



A reasonably sustained compression problem with some pretty poor handholds on the east face of the wave shaped boulder. I've called it Pipeline after the famous break in Hawaii. It's a bit harder than A Hundred Bananas above it in a similar style. This problem has an obvious undercut starting jug from a sit, but it's a bit hollow, so to avoid pulling it off I started from a stand with 1 hand on the undercut and 1 hand on the arete. All the rock above it is high quality.

Panorama Rocks is a smallish venue with a few very good problems. A Hundred Bananas has seen quite a bit of attention since the FA by Dan in Jan 22 and for good reason - it's one of the best problems in Yorkshire. Although A Hundred Bananas is on private land, it's quite well concealed from the houses below. The Wave Block is a bit closer to the houses and some sides of it overlook the houses. Pipeline is on a side which is hidden from the houses by trees, at least in summer.

On my first visit to the crag in winter, I spent an hour or two cleaning the boulder and a friends dog ran into one of the gardens below. The homeowner came out and told us that the landowner lives further up the road and does not like anyone tresspassing. A conflicting report came from someone else who spoke to the landowner directly and he didn't seem overly concerned about climbers being there, although was vague.

I went back to climb it the other week on my own and it was fine, no one saw me and I didn't have a good view of the houses below due to the trees. I took a bag of rubbish home so it's not just climbers trespassing (hopefully!). Another mate climbed it on another day and again all was fine. Make up your own mind, but go stealthily if you do.   

[36chambers]

According to https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search (I have no idea whether it's reliable or not), of the three houses highlighted in the red dotted line, the one on the left owns the land. I wonder if they refer to it as their garden.

I suppose a consideration is whether it was actually the dog who gave you away or whether you'd been spotted already. Also, since they are now aware people are interested in the boulders they might pay more attention to them. Did they explicitly ask you leave then?

Sweet looking climb regardless, it's such a shame the fence isn't 20 meters more west.

[Fiend]

Yeah enough about the dodgy access, give it a proper grade FFS, LiamSharma89 

[Dingdong]

Yeah enough about the dodgy access, give it a proper grade FFS, LiamSharma89 

If you have to ask the price, you can’t afford it 

[User deactivated.]

According to https://www.landregistry-uk.com/map-search (I have no idea whether it's reliable or not), of the three houses highlighted in the red dotted line, the one on the left owns the land. I wonder if they refer to it as their garden.

I suppose a consideration is whether it was actually the dog who gave you away or whether you'd been spotted already. Also, since they are now aware people are interested in the boulders they might pay more attention to them. Did they explicitly ask you leave then?

Sweet looking climb regardless, it's such a shame the fence isn't 20 meters more west.

Regarding who is the landowner, I'd go by your land registry detective work. I was only making a guess based on the comment that the landowner lived further down the road.

I think the dog gave the game away on first visit although I wasn't being very discrete at this time myself (dangling off an orange ab rope to clean it). After chatting to this homeowner we said we'd be 10 minutes and we were told we should leave afterwards. He left me cleaning it.

On this side of the boulder, and at least when the leaves are on the trees, I don't think anyone from the houses could see you, hence no further trouble for me or the other person who climbed it on 3 separate visits between us. But it's basically a Bo Selecta / Stone Mill type arrangement - if you really want to do it just try not to get caught and it will probably be ok.

Yeah enough about the dodgy access, give it a proper grade FFS, LiamSharma89 

It took a session to figure out the moves and then another to do it, so whatever that works out to.

[Bonjoy]

I looked into the ownership of this last year and also concluded it was the house on the far left.
General thoughts on climbing on this boulder:
- Not bringing a dog seems like the bare minimum of keeping a low profile here IMO.
- I think the presence/absence of leaves on the trees below makes a huge difference to visibility from the houses below. I have only been here when there are no leaves, but it was clear that there are lot of branches between block and houses.
- Although the houses below don't belong to the owner, I'd expect that being seen by them will eventually lead to the owner becoming aware.
- Being seen climbing on this boulder is a lot more likely than being seen on the Hundred Bananas boulder. Quickly relocating to the public bit of the crag is also harder. The combined effect is that an encounter with one of the homeowners is probably more likely.
- I think there is a good chance climbers have 'got away' with climbing HB because it's right up in the far corner of the land and very close to the fence. Either it hasn't been noticed or it has been tolerated as it is almost outside the boundary.
- I think there is a risk that getting caught climbing on the lower block could lead to more notice being taken of climbing on HB. It's very conceivable this would be negative attention.
- Ultimately it's up to local climbers to decide how they balance the risks and benefits of climbing and publicising ascents on these two blocks.
- If anyone does encounter the owner, please can they take his/her name and contact details.

[Bradders]

Your map is quite a way off Liam, the Bananas block is actually almost exactly where the "A Hundred Bananas" writing is, I.e. it's directly at the bottom of (and in fact you top out into) the garden of the house at the corner of the blue line. You can see the gable end of the house when you're on top of the boulder, directly above you. The FA of A Hundred Bananas, Dan, told me he'd spoken to the owners of the house above (whose garden you top out into), and they said it was fine provided no groups / shouting etc.

The Pipeline block is downhill from this, directly behind the rightmost of the three circled houses, just left of the "private" writing.

Bananas is definitely closest to a house. 

Anyway, discretion required for either problem, and I will fess up here that it was my dog that ran into one of the gardens while I wasn't paying attention. No excuses, I'd brought him thinking I'd only be on Bananas, and then didn't concentrate on him while Liam was cleaning the wave feature. The man I spoke to said he'd heard us talking before the dog ran in, but he'd thought we were further up the hill. Personally I'd have leant towards documenting it on UKC/27Crags and leaving it at that tbh; I don't see how putting it on social media helps anyone.

I also think it's the type of place which is never going to see a formal access arrangement put in. So keeping it quiet, limiting it to discrete solo visits by people who've done more than scroll through Instagram, is probably a better way to go. In my humble opinion.

[spidermonkey09]

What Nick said. Social media is only going to create problems IMO.

[User deactivated.]

Obviously I didn't intend to out you, Bradders! It doesn't really matter whose dog it was anyway. Seems like all my annotations on the map need shifting left a bit then.

Regarding UKC vs social media vs whatever, based on my personal experience I wouldn't agree that social media only creates problems. I've done a handful of problems that are at crags which are either banned or on private land without an access arrangement and had great experiences, purely thanks to seeing them on social media. In fact one of my top 3 climbing experiences was at one of these crags after seeing it on instagram first. I've always been as responsible as one can reasonably be whilst trespassing and I only have a smallish social media following consisting of mostly non climbers. However, I hope that some of my climbing friends do see it and go to climb it, and I hope and trust that they will be sensible in line with my advice given in the caption. I'd anticipate that the number of strangers who see it on my social media is less than those who would see it on UKC.

[Paul B]

Whatever the access situation (rights/wrongs) I have to say, that's one good looking problem!

[Bradders]

Obviously I didn't intend to out you, Bradders! It doesn't really matter whose dog it was anyway. Seems like all my annotations on the map need shifting left a bit then.

Regarding UKC vs social media vs whatever, based on my personal experience I wouldn't agree that social media only creates problems. I've done a handful of problems that are at crags which are either banned or on private land without an access arrangement and had great experiences, purely thanks to seeing them on social media. In fact one of my top 3 climbing experiences was at one of these crags after seeing it on instagram first. I've always been as responsible as one can reasonably be whilst trespassing and I only have a smallish social media following consisting of mostly non climbers. However, I hope that some of my climbing friends do see it and go to climb it, and I hope and trust that they will be sensible in line with my advice given in the caption. I'd anticipate that the number of strangers who see it on my social media is less than those who would see it on UKC.

Ah not at all, it was completely my fault as I say. Lesson learned.

All good points, I can see both sides.

Whatever the access situation (rights/wrongs) I have to say, that's one good looking problem!

I have to say it's a great bit of vision by Liam. I've looked at that block and wrote off the arete as being not worthwhile; basically it seemed from the ground like it'd be pretty easy, and with the access situation as it is (and the fact I don't get out of bed for less than 7C) I didn't bother going back. But as you say all cleaned up it looks great and it's clearly quite tricky.

[spidermonkey09]

Agree it looks awesome.

Not having a go, but what are we discussing if you've put it on socials already and will leave it there? I agree this is a better forum for discussion but every post so far has expressed doubts about the wisdom of climbing there. Seems a bit like the Apprentice Wall situation as far as I can see; one thing people risking it to go and climb it but posting photos/videos up of them doing it/trespassing seems likely to inflame the situation, no? I'm unlikely to go and do it despite it looking good, but I can't see anything other than downside to publicising climbing at this spot. All the potential upsides are covered by UKC. Again, just my opinion.

[Dingdong]

Good points all round. From my limited experience - publishing new problems on social media in places with dodgy or vague access rarely brings in hordes. Most times you will see a tiny uptick in visitors, usually the very keen who will seek out the esoterica, these visitors tend to be more respectful and low key and have a better understanding of access situations and how to not inflame said issues. Unless y’all decide to bring your dogs 

[User deactivated.]

Good points all round. From my limited experience - publishing new problems on social media in places with dodgy or vague access rarely brings in hordes. Most times you will see a tiny uptick in visitors, usually the very keen who will seek out the esoterica, these visitors tend to be more respectful and low key and have a better understanding of access situations and how to not inflame said issues. Unless y’all decide to bring your dogs 

I was kind of thinking this myself. I made a right song and dance about the new Hawkcliffe stuff, produced a guidebook with photos of each climb, provided videos, lots of posts on Instagram, and published the problems on UKC. Yet most of the problems haven't been visited since, so it almost feels like a waste of time! The Throne, Bladerunner, Two of Spades, and Africa Wall are all close to one another, all very good, and haven't seen any attention since they were developed. In reality, only the very keen will go to these venues and the hordes will still go to Almscliff.

[Will Hunt]

I and a few others have been to Hawkcliffe for a poke around but, to be fair, most people are off doing routes at this time of year rather than thrashing through the undergrowth to climb sweaty, humid grit!
I was keen for a look at the Dawning but even when I visited in July the bottom half of it was covered in gunge.

For the Panorama boulder, it's worth noting that it's probably 40m or less from the house that it overlooks (not 200m as stated on Instagram). I seem to remember having a very clear view of the resident's sofa. We decided not to develop it as it would very likely cause (totally reasonable) upset with the homeowner below (whether or not they own the woods is irrelevant) which might then impact the boulder above which is incredibly good and would be quite a loss. It seems that the homeowner made it clear they didn't want people climbing there on Liam's first visit so traffic there in winter is definitely going to cause an issue as you will be very visible from the house.

For those who haven't been, I wouldn't say you top out a Hundred Eyes into someone's garden. At the top of the boulder is a muddy slope with a fly-tipped trampoline going up to a garden wall, over which is the garden. The house up there is close by but there's no line of sight and nor is there a clear view to the house at the bottom, which is 100m away.

[rossydoodle61]

Whatever the access situation (rights/wrongs) I have to say, that's one good looking problem!

It does look incredible. No idea how it climbs but it’s reminiscent of Pensées Cachées in Font.

https://bleau.info/cuisiniere/503.html

[User deactivated.]

For the Panorama boulder, it's worth noting that it's probably 40m or less from the house that it overlooks (not 200m as stated on Instagram).

....nor is there a clear view to the house at the bottom [from Hundred Eyes], which is 100m away.

As Bradders already established, my map from memory was quite a way off, but so are your numbers. The Wave block is closer to A Hundred Bananas than it is to the house below, so your math doesn't check out. Google map measuring with a bit more attention to detail tells me the numbers are more like 120m and 75m. But it doesn't matter. What matters most is how visible the house is and I agree that it's probably best avoided in winter (my instagram caption says this).

[northern yob]

A Hundred Bananas is one of the better problems on grit! It’s a beautiful thing! Climbing on the other Boulder regardless of how good it is, is in my view only gonna lead to us losing a hundred bananas, it’s just my opinion, but if you were gonna ignore any rules/ agreements and were to climb it, maybe keep it to yourself…. ie don’t spoof about it on here or on social media!

[highrepute]

What do you gain putting this up on here/socials Liam?

What do you lose by not posting?

My feeling is that some things are best just left alone. There's other bits of rock that aren't in people's gardens.

[User deactivated.]

Already answered in post #8

[SA Chris]

I made a right song and dance about the new Hawkcliffe stuff, produced a guidebook with photos of each climb, provided videos, lots of posts on Instagram, and published the problems on UKC. Yet most of the problems haven't been visited since, so it almost feels like a waste of time! The Throne, Bladerunner, Two of Spades, and Africa Wall are all close to one another, all very good, and haven't seen any attention since they were developed.

According to the latest Pennine lines, looks like some Peak Daves have been for a visit.