[Wellsy]

My humble opinion is that this ties into a wider and growing tension within the "community" (as in obsessive rock fondlers et al) between a more traditional, small, low key and transgressive attitude and a bigger, more visible and online, modern  attitude which is looking for respect and viability as a sport etc etc

In the past small numbers of people would go quietly to crags they probably weren't supposed to be at, did stuff, made vids watched by like 200 people max, chatted about it at the pub to other people they know etc. It was transgressive and the attitude was more "if you can get away with it why not."

Then you have the more recent arrival; going to a crag and making YouTube videos and Instagram posts, going in big groups, etc etc etc.

This isn't random newbies either; access at Roche Abbey is supposed to be low key and quiet or a ban will be enforced; there's a recent Wedge vid where Aidan bangs out some hard stuff for all and sundry to see. UKC has a post on the crag saying basically "keep quiet about this" but when Mat Wright did Serenata, lovely locks flowing in the breeze, they also did an article about it. Not that I'm slagging any of em off; it's all in the game and I watched those vids and put stuff on my own 'gram account. But there's a tension there.

I took my gf to Roche Abbey (didn't do the Wasp if anyone cares) and told her and her mate like, okay be quiet here, don't put stuff on the Internet about it, low key. And I think that's wise. But at the same time that's because you aren't reallllly supposed to be there. I was a bit bluff about it tbh. It's climbing guys, a bit off the beaten track, exciting right? But at the same time it is weird that on the one hand you've got the latest RandallCorp creation making all these vids as if this is a fully legitimate and above board pastime, and yet loads of people are technically trespassing at the same time, including me and some of the best in the country. The "cheeky visit" as Liam says. Is that going to survive the changing discipline? Like we've a landowner posting in this thread saying "you can't climb here cos you can't follow the rules" and the BMC access rep etc but also people talking about climbing places we know we aren't hugely meant to be at.

I think, following on from that, as climbers the growing scene means that these cheeky visits are going to have to stop at some point, and for us to self-police access much more stringently and strictly follow access rules. Otherwise I can only see this issue getting bigger.

[Wellsy]

If anyone is curious I just asked a WhatsApp group of about 20 people whether they'd heard of the RAD. They're all relatively new to outdoor bouldering but most have been to font, have climbed on a variety of grit and non grit crags, across Yorkshire and the Peak, some have climbed in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland, and some have previously suggested going to places like Churnet. Literally the only person who had ever heard of it was me. Clearly there is a knowledge gap.

[Bonjoy]

Apologies for the arbitrary choice of where to split the topic. I couldn't see a more obvious earlier point as a lot of previous posts or their replies referenced the Wright's situation specifically.
I've split as the thread had moved beyond the narrow question of access at Wright's, and in particular I don't wish the landowner to assume people speaking hypothetically on the broader topic were making comments that should apply at Wright's.
What I'd say Wellsy on your point is that trying to fit all situations into a binary yes/no, black/white, banned/unbanned box is in my view a very unwise road to go down and would lead to many many lost crags. Ambiguity is reflective of the actual complexity of the situation in multiple regards, including the legality in many cases. Seeking to establish known access and a concrete agreement on all crags is no more helpful to landowners in many cases than it is for climbers. Unsurprisingly for instance the owners of loose and chossy quarries often know that climbing takes place within them, but would never under any circumstances want to publicly admit to this or be considered to condone or encourage it. Asking for written permission to climb will in this instance only achieve a hard ban. Who benefits from this?
There are many other ways in which the situation can be opaque. Wishing to make everything neat and tidy is a natural human instinct, but is not always a good idea if you value access.

[Jono.r23]

Some (not all for sure) of the mag lime areas, like the one mentioned could possibly benefit from a little more lowkey attendance.. obviously not advertised widely, but if people dont climb at them they’ll only be frequented by drinkers & people lighting fires. Some climbers clean up a bit of this mess but also just being there might occasionally deter those who damage these places

[Wellsy]

I bow to your experience on these matters Bonjoy. I will say however that my feeling is that ambitious grey area situations can be good but can only withstand so much traffic before they start to fall apart. As numbers go up the grey area agreements and "climbing is not explicitly allowed but tolerated if kept quiet" type situations are going to be under more and more pressure.

Neatness and tidiness have their drawbacks but so does a situation where climbers keep on trying to keep the current kind of culture and arrangements in place in the face of a growing sport that wants to be taken more and more seriously as legit, above board etc.

TL;DR ambiguous grey area usage works fine when somewhere gets 50 people going there in a year. It starts to fall apart when there's 500 or a thousand or whatever. Numbers made up ofc.

[ali k]

Just one thought re: UKC and how they could do their bit to help things. Crags with known access issues/restrictions could have restricted visibility on there behind a click-through screen with all the access info on, so you had to tick to acknowledge you’d read it before you could see any of the content inc. logbooks/photos etc. Granted people will likely still ignore it if that way inclined but at least it removes the defence of ignorance.

[Bradders]

If anyone is curious I just asked a WhatsApp group of about 20 people whether they'd heard of the RAD. They're all relatively new to outdoor bouldering but most have been to font, have climbed on a variety of grit and non grit crags, across Yorkshire and the Peak, some have climbed in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland, and some have previously suggested going to places like Churnet. Literally the only person who had ever heard of it was me. Clearly there is a knowledge gap.

I guess the "issue" here is that actually we are incredibly lucky in the UK that for the vast majority of venues, and particularly the big popular spots that you're likely to go to early on when venturing outside, access genuinely isn't a problem.

Obviously there are exceptions, e.g. Almscliff's lamping ban, bird restrictions, etc. But by and large when you're first starting out you don't actually need to be cognisant of access restrictions because there almost aren't any at the places you're likely to be going other than the obvious need to park considerately (which people still manage to fail at).

It's been interesting for me recently, in contrasting that relative freedom with how things are in Ireland. Basically all land is private or state owned here, with no equivalent of the CROW Act or anything similar (they don't even have public rights of way, everything is permissive at the behest of the landowners), and further restrictions based around liability (e.g. if you install bolts for sport climbing the landowner is legally liable for their safe operation). As a result, Irish climbers are intensely aware of access conditions and seem to be extremely cautious about obtaining the relevant permissions.

I think the other thing is that climbing is now tending to draw what I would call a highly metropolitan audience; people who really haven't spent all that much time in the countryside before, and therefore have zero clue about how to act. It's this that leads to people walking on the wall at Almscliff because they've not brought proper footwear. The solution in my opinion, as has been said ad infinitum, lies with education at climbing walls. But sadly it's not in their interests as commercial entities so they're never going to do it well, if at all.

[SA Chris]

Access issues are similar in the US too. Unless designated as a Park or BLM / Wilderness, someone owns it. A lot of climbing areas that are are lost are due to real estate developments preventing any way of getting to the climbing and the NIMBY attitude of the homeowners.

[Bonjoy]

I bow to your experience on these matters Bonjoy. I will say however that my feeling is that [ambiguous] grey area situations can be good but can only withstand so much traffic before they start to fall apart. As numbers go up the grey area agreements and "climbing is not explicitly allowed but tolerated if kept quiet" type situations are going to be under more and more pressure.

This is true, but I don't believe it implies a shift in culture across the board is good for access. Low key arrangements works in many places, and in many cases are all that is needed to sustain the level of traffic the crag will receive under any likely scenario. Bear in mind you mostly only hear about it when thing go wrong. Often the established usage pattern from this go on to form the basis of a formal arrangement at a later date. But it's safe to assume that in some cases this is the only form of access that can be hoped for, and some crunch point will be reached eventually.  Better understanding of when an area is reaching this point on a case by case basis is needed. In practice this can be hard, not least because crag popularity doesn't change in a linear way. What is useful in nipping things in the bud is:
 - Climbers reporting any issues they have at a crag, even if minor, so a picture forms before a major problem happens. It's telling for instance that not a single climber has reported their encounters with the landowner at Wright's to me or anyone else that I know of.
 - Taking landowner details if challenged at the crag. This is so important in swiftly getting a line of communication going, and yet rarely happens.
 - Never arguing the point if challenged about access. Just ask for details, apologise for causing offence (even if you think you haven't) and leave as quickly as possible.

It's also worth noting that more than half of the access issues that have sprung up recently have been on crags where a robust agreement has been established with the landowner. There is no one size fits all.
I think climbers almost universally wish to carry out a low impact activity outdoors without harming wildlife or the interests of the landowner, and would see this as the right driving force behind the approach to access above any other considerations.

[Moo]

Just one thought re: UKC and how they could do their bit to help things. Crags with known access issues/restrictions could have restricted visibility on there behind a click-through screen with all the access info on, so you had to tick to acknowledge you’d read it before you could see any of the content inc. logbooks/photos etc. Granted people will likely still ignore it if that way inclined but at least it removes the defence of ignorance.

 

[Dexter]

If anyone is curious I just asked a WhatsApp group of about 20 people whether they'd heard of the RAD. They're all relatively new to outdoor bouldering but most have been to font, have climbed on a variety of grit and non grit crags, across Yorkshire and the Peak, some have climbed in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland, and some have previously suggested going to places like Churnet. Literally the only person who had ever heard of it was me. Clearly there is a knowledge gap.

I don't think this is just new climbers. I would consider myself fairly experienced (certainly not the most) but haven't heard of RAD. My go to for this info would be guidebooks, and UKC.

[Wellsy]

If anyone is curious I just asked a WhatsApp group of about 20 people whether they'd heard of the RAD. They're all relatively new to outdoor bouldering but most have been to font, have climbed on a variety of grit and non grit crags, across Yorkshire and the Peak, some have climbed in the Lakes, Wales and Scotland, and some have previously suggested going to places like Churnet. Literally the only person who had ever heard of it was me. Clearly there is a knowledge gap.

I don't think this is just new climbers. I would consider myself fairly experienced (certainly not the most) but haven't heard of RAD. My go to for this info would be guidebooks, and UKC.

Totally agree

[Bradders]

Noticed on UKC that where a crag has restricted access or is banned that advice now appears for individual climbs as well as on the main crag page. Seems like a good change to me, making it harder to miss.