[Gritter]

Research by James Cantor suggests pedophilia is innate and mostly seen in short left handed men of below average IQ. As a gay man he argues to add a P to the LGBTQIA+ based upon current scientific evidence indicating that pedophiles are a marginalised and stigmatised minority group who have no choice in their sexual preferences. I can see his point. Hence the distinction between the obvious moral panic and the real world implications of potential harm. Which in gender affirming surgery / pharmaceutical treatment for children is a very high risk indeed. Once an adult with capacity to make clear decisions I don’t believe anyone on here is saying that person should not be treated with dignity and respect etc.

James Cantor on transgender identity



And activism, extremism and being cancelled

[Wellsy]

Cantor, from a brief Google, had his testimony thrown out by a judge because it turns out he has no experience with treating gender dysphoria

Sounds like he's just another transphobe trotted out to back up spurious nonsense

[Oldmanmatt]

Cantor, from a brief Google, had his testimony thrown out by a judge because it turns out he has no experience with treating gender dysphoria

Sounds like he's just another transphobe trotted out to back up spurious nonsense

Yes, and forced to apologise to a federal court for submitting as expert testimony a recycled report he’d been paid to write by a fundamental Christian group. Either expelled or forced to resign from almost every professional body in his field too, over a 20 year period. I’d never heard of him, but had a couple of hours free this morning, so looked him up. Not someone I’d have picked to back up my argument. Anyway, back to my point about dissent not invalidating consensus…

Edit.
I really wasn’t going to bother replying. After all, still nowt to change my mind and a bit too much University of “some bloke in the pub told me”. Any second, somebody’s going to start a post with “stands to reason “ and claim spokesmanship of “the silent majority “…

[danm]

I have a phD and a Youtube channel, therefore you must listen to me!

I'm also still waiting for Alex to apologise to Slab for the personal attacks. Calling someone evil/thick is not how we behave on this forum, no matter how much our opinions differ.

[Gritter]

Rather than carefully listen to what he (James Cantor) has to say, why not choose the easy option of an ad hominem argument generated by quick google searches?

In summary he suggests that transgender identity broadly fits into two categories - autogynophilia and latent / repressed homosexuality which may be caused* by internalised homophobia. He discusses two other areas of interest including rapid onset gender dysphoria associated with cultural contagion and also alludes to the metaphysical problem described earlier on in the thread. All in all he suggests compassion and a watchful waiting approach in the most part as trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

[Oldmanmatt]

Rather than carefully listen to what he (James Cantor) has to say, why not choose the easy option of an ad hominem argument generated by quick google searches?

In summary he suggests that transgender identity broadly fits into two categories - autogynophilia and latent / repressed homosexuality which may be caused* by internalised homophobia. He discusses two other areas of interest including rapid onset gender dysphoria associated with cultural contagion and also alludes to the metaphysical problem described earlier on in the thread. All in all he suggests compassion and a watchful waiting approach in the most part as trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

Oh dear.

[slab_happy]

Cantor, from a brief Google, had his testimony thrown out by a judge because it turns out he has no experience with treating gender dysphoria

Sounds like he's just another transphobe trotted out to back up spurious nonsense

If you'd like the money quote, from a federal court ruling in 2022 (since I happen to have it on hand): https://ecf.almd.uscourts.gov/cgi-bin/show_public_doc?2022cv0184-107

On cross examination, however, Dr. Cantor admitted that: (1) his patients are, on average, thirty years old; (2) he had never provided care to a transgender minor under the age of sixteen; (3) he had never diagnosed a child or adolescent with gender dysphoria; (4) he had never treated a child or adolescent for gender dysphoria; (5) he had no personal experience monitoring patients receiving transitioning medications; and (6) he had no personal knowledge of the assessments or treatment methodologies used at any Alabama gender clinic. Id. at 306–09. Accordingly, the Court gave his testimony regarding the treatment of gender dysphoria in minors very little weight.

I believe he may have treated adult patients -- he was a disciple of the infamous Ray Blanchard (who started the "autogynephilia" theory that trans women have a sexual fetish for the image of themselves as women).

But he has exactly zero experience or expertise regarding children with gender dysphoria, the subject he is most often pontificating on.

He's worked as a paid expert witness for the Alliance Defending Freedom, an extreme right-wing fundamentalist Christian group who, aside from their hate-on for trans people, want to overturn same-sex marriage, defend the criminalization of gay sex, and enact a total ban on abortion.

And, of course, as Gritter so helpfully reminded us, he thinks pedophiles belong in the LGBTQIA+ community. N.B. that this is an idea that people in the LGBTQIA+ community tend to regard as horrifying and deeply offensive.

On a more amusing note, apparently several years back Cantor was caught editing all the sexology articles on Wikipedia to praise Blanchard and Kenneth Zucker and himself, under the name "Marion the Librarian."

[Gritter]

More as hominem unearthed from Google Search and that bastion of truth Wikipedia

[Fiend]

In summary he suggests that transgender identity broadly fits into two categories - autogynophilia and latent / repressed homosexuality which may be caused* by internalised homophobia. He discusses two other areas of interest including rapid onset gender dysphoria associated with cultural contagion and also alludes to the metaphysical problem described earlier on in the thread. All in all he suggests compassion and a watchful waiting approach in the most part as trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

Not sure that does his case any favours.

More interestingly:

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?
2. If it is true, does that mean they're not transgender?

[Wellsy]

More as hominem unearthed from Google Search and that bastion of truth Wikipedia

Lmao you brought him up mate

[JamieG]

More as hominem unearthed from Google Search and that bastion of truth Wikipedia

Slab-happy referenced a US court ruling on his ‘expertise’, from Alabama of all places. Hardly some randomly dug up ad hominem attack!

[slab_happy]

More as hominem unearthed from Google Search and that bastion of truth Wikipedia

Slab-happy referenced a US court ruling on his ‘expertise’, from Alabama of all places. Hardly some randomly dug up ad hominem attack!

Not to mention that it's a court ruling which summarized what Cantor himself admitted under oath -- namely that he has exactly zero experience treating kids with gender dysphoria.

It's not an "ad hominem" if he says it himself!

[slab_happy]

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?

Oh hey it's a topic I can info-dump about! 

Short answer: no, it's not true that "trans identifying children" will grow up to be gay/lesbian rather than trans, because the handful of studies produced as "evidence" for this were done using the old criteria for "gender identity disorder", for which you could qualify if you were (for example) a boy who wanted to wear dresses and play with dolls, or a girl who hated dresses and wanted short hair -- you didn't have to identify as a different gender or want to be a different gender, just be gender-non-conforming.

In some of the studies, when asked what their gender was, more than 90% of the kids labelled as having "gender identity disorder" said it was the gender they were assigned at birth.

So on follow-up, they found that a lot of kids with that diagnosis didn't grow up to be trans -- which is not fucking surprising because they weren't ever trans in the first place.

(There's also data dodginess in various studies like assuming that any kids they couldn't find for follow-up -- and there were huge numbers of them -- must have "desisted.")

By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

So it's weird and nonsensical for people like Cantor to present being trans as something people do instead of being gay, or imply that being trans must be caused by "internalized homophobia."

Anyway, a really good article if you want to go into this in depth:

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/transgender-children-desistance-a5caf61fc5c6/

Also good:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/01/what-alarmist-articles-about-transgender-children-get-wrong.html

[Oldmanmatt]

More as hominem unearthed from Google Search and that bastion of truth Wikipedia

Where, pray tell, did you find him?

Do you think that checking your sources is, I don’t know, cheating?

I know I wrote that I’d spent “a couple of hours “ looking into it/ him, but it was actually a little over six hours.

I mean, why? Why is this view point, supposedly advocated by and expert in the field, so far removed from the consensus of his peers?

So I skimmed (read the abstract/conclusion) a couple of his published papers, then had a look for rebuttals and peer commentary; which is when it became apparent he was not the most reliable source. To put it mildly.

Go look for yourself.

Seriously, posting links to YouTube clips as evidence to support an assertion, around here (this forum) is like painting a target on your forehead. Peer reviewed at least and Meta is betta. Or prepare to be eviscerated.
This is a humorous comment, not to be taken too seriously.

Though the “most trans kids turn out to “ just” be gay thing. Citation? Evidence?
Over to you.

Edit: sorry Slabs, posts crossed. I still would have liked to see Gritter back up his own assertion.

[Gritter]

You're 'playing the player not the ball' which is Ad Hominem or alternatively the 'appeal to authority', just like the antisemitic ADL stuff was nonsense. Neither of them are arguments which dispute the points made in the interviews which are the same points made by others such as Ray Blanchard. It's really a straightforward point that a watchful waiting approach to gender dysphoria in 99.99999% of cases is preferable to blocking puberty, starting hormone therapy and ultimately removing sexual organs and breasts. One of many good reasons for this is the high incidence of complex mental health problems in gender dysphoric children stemming from childhood abuse including violence, sexual trauma, bullying, neglect and isolation. These mental health problems include complex PTSD, dissociative disorders, personality disorder including borderline and fragile narcissism, and various forms of anxiety and depressive disorders. This is without going into the cultural contagion aspects of the problem during teenage years when developing identities in a increasingly complex world is a total minefield, leading to vulnerable people being exposed to many different influences including online grooming by adults taking an interest in gender dysphoric and lonely youths. This is a common sense article from 2016 which pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter.

https://cplaction.com/wp-content/uploads/cretella-GenderDysphoriaInChildren.pdf

[Gritter]

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?

Oh hey it's a topic I can info-dump about! 

Short answer: no, it's not true that "trans identifying children" will grow up to be gay/lesbian rather than trans, because the handful of studies produced as "evidence" for this were done using the old criteria for "gender identity disorder", for which you could qualify if you were (for example) a boy who wanted to wear dresses and play with dolls, or a girl who hated dresses and wanted short hair -- you didn't have to identify as a different gender or want to be a different gender, just be gender-non-conforming.

In some of the studies, when asked what their gender was, more than 90% of the kids labelled as having "gender identity disorder" said it was the gender they were assigned at birth.

So on follow-up, they found that a lot of kids with that diagnosis didn't grow up to be trans -- which is not fucking surprising because they weren't ever trans in the first place.

(There's also data dodginess in various studies like assuming that any kids they couldn't find for follow-up -- and there were huge numbers of them -- must have "desisted.")

By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

So it's weird and nonsensical for people like Cantor to present being trans as something people do instead of being gay, or imply that being trans must be caused by "internalized homophobia."

Anyway, a really good article if you want to go into this in depth:

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/transgender-children-desistance-a5caf61fc5c6/

Also good:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/01/what-alarmist-articles-about-transgender-children-get-wrong.html

All your links are opinion pieces mixing up anecdotes, views of charitable organisations, surveys and identity politics.

[petejh]

Hang on Slab..

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?

Short answer: no, it's not true that "trans identifying children" will grow up to be gay/lesbian rather than trans, ...

By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

Is this not saying the same as what Gritter said, which you say isn't true? 'A trans-identifying child if left untreated will usually grow up to be a homosexual adult'?

No angle, except curiosity.

[Oldmanmatt]

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?

Oh hey it's a topic I can info-dump about! 

Short answer: no, it's not true that "trans identifying children" will grow up to be gay/lesbian rather than trans, because the handful of studies produced as "evidence" for this were done using the old criteria for "gender identity disorder", for which you could qualify if you were (for example) a boy who wanted to wear dresses and play with dolls, or a girl who hated dresses and wanted short hair -- you didn't have to identify as a different gender or want to be a different gender, just be gender-non-conforming.

In some of the studies, when asked what their gender was, more than 90% of the kids labelled as having "gender identity disorder" said it was the gender they were assigned at birth.

So on follow-up, they found that a lot of kids with that diagnosis didn't grow up to be trans -- which is not fucking surprising because they weren't ever trans in the first place.

(There's also data dodginess in various studies like assuming that any kids they couldn't find for follow-up -- and there were huge numbers of them -- must have "desisted.")

By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

So it's weird and nonsensical for people like Cantor to present being trans as something people do instead of being gay, or imply that being trans must be caused by "internalized homophobia."

Anyway, a really good article if you want to go into this in depth:

https://archive.thinkprogress.org/transgender-children-desistance-a5caf61fc5c6/

Also good:

https://slate.com/human-interest/2016/01/what-alarmist-articles-about-transgender-children-get-wrong.html

All your links are opinion pieces mixing up anecdotes, views of charitable organisations, surveys and identity politics.

All your links are opinion pieces (by widely discredited sources), mixing up anecdotes, views of extremist organisations and heavily influenced by identity politics and where you haven’t “supported “ your case with such; your posts have been Ad Hominem and insulting of other posters.

[Oldmanmatt]

Hang on Slab..

trans identifying children when left untreated by medical means will usually be homosexual in adulthood.

1. Is this true?

Short answer: no, it's not true that "trans identifying children" will grow up to be gay/lesbian rather than trans, ...

By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

Is this not saying the same as what Gritter said, which you say isn't true? 'A trans-identifying child if left untreated will usually grow up to be a homosexual adult'?

No angle, except curiosity.

No Pete, it’s not. Because there is a difference in the way way a trans identifying child is defined initially, to sort them from those who were simply (bad word, not simple at all) gender nonconformist, from the older criteria. That first paragraph you edited out in the quote was kinda critical to the overall point of her statement.

Still, the complexity of the issue, just pushes me further into the “ leave it to the experts and the consensus” category I was already in.

Edit. The fact that the majority of Trans people are not heterosexual is a separate statement, as in they are both Trans and not heterosexual.

[Gritter]

Just trying to get my head around gender dysphoria not being gender dysphoria 

'By contrast, the modern "gender dysphoria" diagnosis does require that you identify as a different gender from the one you were assigned at birth. Which has, strangely enough, been found in studies to be a key predictor of whether GNC kids are likely to grow up to be trans or not.'

[Fiend]

Hang on Slab..

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

Is this not saying the same as what Gritter said, which you say isn't true? 'A trans-identifying child if left untreated will usually grow up to be a homosexual adult'?

No angle, except curiosity.

Ah, this is probably my fault (I vaguely saw it coming) for not clarifying whether the question was about being homosexual before or after transition.

I believe what Cantor was apparently asserting is that trans-identifying people would grow up to be homosexual-to-their-biological-gender (which, as they didn't transition, would also be their current gender, with then a leap of faith to "they were just gay, they were never truly TG after all", which seems to ignore the possibility they're still latently TG and still living the biological gender lie).

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

[Oldmanmatt]

The paper Gritter linked to is interesting, possibly not in the way he hoped.
Referring to “affirming the child’s false belief” in reference to certain treatment protocols, without, as far as I could see, any evidence that the belief was false; merely assuming it was.
Lots of talk about the effects or potential effects of drug/ hormone intervention and an implication that it is or is about to be used on very young children, yet (almost quietly) admits that such treatment is prohibited for anyone under 16 years of age (pretty late into puberty, surely? Most males and almost all females have passed through by 16, surely).
Worth a read.

Plus, it is wholly in reference to the US policies and regimes, not the UK.

[Gritter]

For an alternative perspective the Reddit Detrans community is a good read, lots of interesting stories.

https://www.reddit.com/r/detrans/

Ritchie Herron is an outspoken voice for those going through de-transition in the UK.

[Oldmanmatt]

Hang on Slab..

Also, as I've mentioned before, the majority of trans people are not heterosexual anyway:

https://www.thetaskforce.org/news/wonky-wednesday-trans-people-and-sexual-orientation/

Is this not saying the same as what Gritter said, which you say isn't true? 'A trans-identifying child if left untreated will usually grow up to be a homosexual adult'?

No angle, except curiosity.

Ah, this is probably my fault (I vaguely saw it coming) for not clarifying whether the question was about being homosexual before or after transition.

I believe what Cantor was apparently asserting is that trans-identifying people would grow up to be homosexual-to-their-biological-gender (which, as they didn't transition, would also be their current gender, with then a leap of faith to "they were just gay, they were never truly TG after all", which seems to ignore the possibility they're still latently TG and still living the biological gender lie).

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

It all gets a bit “Who’s on first” doesn’t it?

Like Gritter missing the point the that “Gender identity disorder “ has different criteria to “Gender Dysphoria” and is therefore not the same thing.

[petejh]

I believe what Cantor was apparently asserting is that trans-identifying people would grow up to be homosexual-to-their-biological-gender (which, as they didn't transition, would also be their current gender ...

And I suspect what slab_happy is referring to is post-transition TGs being homosexual-to-their-current-gender, i.e. actually heterosexual-to-their-biological-gender, which would refute that.

Ah, that would make sense - me being dumb. Derivatives are far easier than this shit.