[reeve]

Just a heads up that this is a week tomorrow. Some blurb:

Meeting start time 7.30pm at the Bamford Village Institute, meet at the Anglers Rest (over the road) at 6.30pm, with chip butties served at 7.15pm. Everyone welcome.

Updates from access reps with info on local issues, hillwalking reps' update, members council updates, and a feature on this year's ring ouzel project with Kim Leyland.

After the meeting we have Mel Talbot, crack climbing enthusiast,  star of the recent climbing film 'last forgotten art', and all round good egg, regaling us with tales of jamming across the globe. 'Ten lessons learnt in the Utah desert' promises to be an entertaining tale of Mel's mishaps and misadventures in all things crack climbing.

[shark]

Hi Andy

Sorry for short notice. Can you add this as a discussion item either to the main agenda or as an AOB item on behalf of the Peak Bolt Fund:

Proposed placement by Peak Bolt Fund of bolt belay/abseil stations at top of Boat Pushers Wall and Electric Quarry.

The ash tree at the top of Boat Pushers is dead and various ash trees above electric quarry are on their way out. Initial investigation indicate there are no alternative belays or they are set back behind a curtain of wild rose and bramble somewhere. To be clear abseil/belay stations are proposed not visible sport lower offs.

Unfortunately I will only be able to attend via Zoom. Will email you and access reps separately.

[reeve]

Thanks Simon, yep definitely will have that on the agenda.

It's in-person only this time, so I'm sorry if that precludes you from attending.

[danm]

I'm hoping to attend, and think it's fantastic that the bolt fund are willing to do the work. I'm slightly wary (hopefully needlessly?) around this coming across as an issue/agenda driven by the PBF though, given that there may understandably be some reservations amongst some people about bolt belays on trad routes.

For some context, I raised the spectre of these kinds of discussion being needed and ideally a consensus reached a couple of years ago with Rob Dyer after Nick Boden (Tufty) rang me to warn me about the number of dying ash trees on trad limestone, followed by a walk down WCJ with my Dad who is a retired tree expert, where he explained the likely devastation to come because of ash die-back. Then covid happened and Rob left the BMC and it dropped off my radar.

I think a discussion needs to happen but it would probably look better if it didn't come as a proposal from PBF? I know they are all dead sound, but you know what people are like.

[shark]

Thanks for raising this. If not from PBF then who? Personally I don’t think there’s an issue in putting the PBF name to this. It’s just a proposal and if there are objections or alternative solutions then we won’t do it. That’s just my view though. I’ll consult with the rest of the crew for their thoughts on this.

[danm]

My concern would be that some people might conflate this as bolters wanting to place bolts on trad crags. Some people get very easily triggered by even the suggestion of this and it might overshadow the real discussion (and reflect negatively on the fund, unfairly), which is, what the hell are we going to do with all the trad climbing in the Peak which is going to be affected by die-back? Do we let nature take its course and lose lots of routes because they have no belay? Do we place bolt belays in every case? Or do we allow bolt belays on a route by route basis after discussion? And if the latter, which amount of discussion and format will give us a consensus without becoming impractical? Once the overarching question has been answered, then we hopefully move on to who might do this work, at which point we can say "these total heroes here, aren't we lucky to have them!"

[spidermonkey09]

I dunno, feels a bit worry wart to me? They aren't lower offs bring proposed, they're belays/ab stations, and any trad climber with the remotest awareness knows of the coming issues around ash dieback. What's the alternative? In this instance there is no belay once the tree goes. What are any objectors going to object to?

Up to the chair to frame the discussion accordingly. Which of course Reeve will! I'm with Shark, don't think there's any issue with the PBF raising it given they're the ones happy to do the work (nobody else will!).

[danm]

Fair enough, I just didn't want folk to walk into any unnecessary aggro!

[Johnny Brown]

Can someone clarify what a belay/ ab station is and how it differs from a lower off please?

[shark]

Can someone clarify what a belay/ ab station is and how it differs from a lower off please?

Located somewhat back from the top of the route is my assumption if it’s to replace a former tree belay as opposed to something you clip at the top of the route to lower off.

[shark]

Fair enough, I just didn't want folk to walk into any unnecessary aggro!

Do you think it’s analogous to   Aldery?

[danm]

Fair enough, I just didn't want folk to walk into any unnecessary aggro!

Do you think it’s analogous to   Aldery?

No, there are significant differences between the 2 situations.

[kc]

Can someone clarify what a belay/ ab station is and how it differs from a lower off please?

In most situations they would be sufficiently inconvenient and set back from the edge hidden amongst ivy brambles wild rose and gorse with a sharp blocky muddy edge that you wouldn't want to run a loaded rope over.
 If an alternative tree like a Horthorn or natural rock placements can be found in close range and not behind a curtain of thorns then of course a bolted ab station may not be necessary.

[shark]

Ok. Another member of the squad agrees with Dan that it could be seen as pushing an agenda - which we really aren’t - it just seemed like a good idea for the specific instances cited above. I gather that persons unknown have installed one above Bitterfingers. No idea how long it’s been there. Also the tree for Wee Doris is dying.

Andy could you amend this to just having a general discussion by the Area on what, if anything, should be done about routes at Stoney for which now dead ash trees provide the belay (and potentially abseil retreat) where no other suitable natural anchors exist. If the Area would like bolted belay / ab stations (not lower offs) to replace the trees then PBF are willing to do the work.

[Fiend]

My concern would be that some people might conflate this as bolters wanting to place bolts on trad crags.

Yeah, leave that to Yorkshire and Llandudno where it's actually happening......

Good discussion otherwise. Hammering out a suitable future-proofing plan for trying to preserve trad which has issues with top-outs and disintegrating trees etc etc is important.

[Bonjoy]

I can't make this area meeting. The proposal sounds good to me though. The question of alternative arrangements/equipment where ash trees have been used for belays and ab stations is one which is cropping up on many crags, particularly on limestone. The suggested work at Stoney sounds proportional and necessary to me. It sounds like alternatives have been considered and that bolted ab stations are the lowest impact and most sustainable solution in the circumstances. Hopefully the meeting will confirm if this is the case. I'll discuss it with Dan afterwards if he's able to attend.

[Potash]

As someone who as been vociferously vocal in my opposition to bolts and pegbolts on adventurous trad climbing areas in the UK I'd like to express my support making peak limestone trad routes as accessible as possible, short of adding fixed protection gear to the actual climbing.

I am ambivalent about loweroffs vs belays. I know which would preserve the character of Oliver or Millionaires Touch the most and that would be inaccessible lower offs a meter below the cliff edge.

Certainly on predominantly sport crags it would make sense to put lower offs on the remaining trad routes.

[Johnny Brown]

Can someone clarify what a belay/ ab station is and how it differs from a lower off please?

In most situations they would be sufficiently inconvenient and set back from the edge hidden amongst ivy brambles wild rose and gorse with a sharp blocky muddy edge that you wouldn't want to run a loaded rope over.
If an alternative tree like a Hawthorn or natural rock placements can be found in close range and not behind a curtain of thorns then of course a bolted ab station may not be necessary.

Thanks Kris. I think I get the drift even if you've written that bolts would be deliberately placed to be inconvenient (e.g. behind thorns) whereas inconvenient extant natural placements (e.g. behind thorns) would suggest placing bolts.

I guess the key difference as opposed a lower-off is you'd have to a) top out and b) go looking for them.

I won't make the meeting and don't have too strong feelings about this location in particular, but can offer a few observations. Firstly, whenever anything changes the only suggested answer/ 'requirement' is always more bolts. Last time I did Bitter Fingers I didn't find it necessary to use the bolt belay; it is a replacement for a quick-clip previously offered by a convenient tree. Other anchors exist. Second, I'm not convinced the loss of an ash or two will mean a permanent lack of trees here. The timespan before other trees grow, (whether another species or disease resistant ash) may will likely be less than the lifespan of the bolts. If we put bolts in now I suspect rather than going back to trees we'll already have lower-offs. If you really want lower-offs it is easy enough to rig them as people often do.

[cheque]

Are stakes not an option?

Last time I climbed at Ravensdale with my mate who knows about trees he pointed out to me that all the trees you abseil off there are dieback-afflicted ashes. These would surely have to be replaced with stakes given the access there.

[kc]

Yes stakes are an option definitely because you can't bolt grass.
 I think every crag is going to be different. On Wildlife Trust land they would prefer no one top out at all. At High Tor the council would probably not be very keen on ropes crossing the footpaths or stakes creating a trip hazard.
No particular route at Stoney has been ear marked yet. It is just from quick observations about the trees. I plan to get out this week armed with secateurs and hut for natural alternatives before making any recommendations. And then others can go up and have a look for themselves before anything gets drilled.

[SA Chris]

These would surely have to be replaced with stakes given the access there.

Sounds like a high stakes game.

[petejh]

If there really was no other bomber option for a belay/ab point except for an Ash with dieback, then you could consider trialling peak-specific stealth anchors by cutting down the Ash, leaving a waist-height stump, drilling a 12mm hole vertically through the stump into the ground below, and resin in a 12mm stainless bar through the stump. Sling the tree stump with suitably old-looking rope and maillon to please the 'natural landscape' crowd and voila: a bomber and 'natural' ab anchor made of steel.

[kc]

How about a fat round wooden post with plastic branches postcreted into the ground.

[Bonjoy]

Stakes are an option. I wouldn't be surprised though if you had to use a big drill to get a decent placement on top of crags like Stoney where the soil is thin anywhere near close to the cragtop. At which point you have to wonder in what respect the stake is lower impact or 'more trad' than a bolt.

[Hydraulic Man]

The point of these bolt belays is not for trad climbers, it's to make it simpler to set top ropes up above Wee Doris and Cabbage.

I presume they would be set well back so you would need a spare rope as you normally do.

The trees are on the way out and currently in both locations lots of tat/static rope backing the trees up.

Any trad climber would sort a belay and you can walk off anyway.