[Dexter]

If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed

[DavidM]

If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed

Interesting. I have actually found upping the hydration considerably in and after my evening sessions has helped lower my body temperature and sleep quality throughout the night but couple of pisses during the night as a result but way less irritable. I might try cutting back entirely after 8pm as the link suggests. I'm acutely aware about eating late impacts sleep also but it I enjoy eating later and having yoghurt with fruit after diner as a treat as I don't eat deserts biscuits etc or sweet items at all.

[tim palmer]

Same story here as everyone else,  40s, two kids, full time job etc.

Train on own board 2-4 times a week,  warm up on board,  climb for maybe 90 mins between 8.45 pm to 10.15. 

30 mins weighted pull ups once a week.

Cycle to work twice a week.

Only had my own board for the past 18 months but feel stronger now than in the past.   

Two specific thoughts:
Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?
Surely climbing on a board should train your fingers and core pretty well unless you are operating at a very high level.

 Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?
If the non climbing training is not specifically to rehab an injury might it be worth trialling sacking off the rings etc.
I have been generally fitter in the past but felt little benefit in my climbing.

A general question:
Why does everyone love drinking water so much? 
Surely drinking to thirst is adequate for a healthy person.

[DavidM]

Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

 Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?   

[DavidM]

Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

 Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Totally plausible

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?

[Fultonius]

Is all the extra training outside being on the board required?

 Do you think it is possible this is just diluting the quality of your actual climbing training?

Bit of context

-I only have a small 7.5ft high by 9ft wide @45 degree board so not a huge amount of upward movement.
-I use the 30-40mins finger boarding and pulls as part of warm up before hitting the board.
-I exclusively used the board for 6-8months and fingers felt tweaky and I got a pulley injury. Sometimes too psyched and not warming up fully maybe. I feel the progressive hangs from the floor warms the fingers up nicely, trains them and keeps them healthy. The weighted pull ups /chin ups offsets the lack of pulling upwards on the board due to space restraints.
- Rings work and end of session is mainly antagonist stuff to keep balanced and injury prevention in shoulder and forearm extensor. Dips, Y's or T's and reverse curls with dumbbell.
- Limited core training incorporated.

What would you consider dropping.?

Opening this one to the board...but is 45 mins of warming up not really excessive?

As part of a lattice assessment I did a couple of years back, the coach commented that my warm up was all wrong for doing limit sessions (which I presume your board session is).  I was gradually working my way through varying difficulty of problems. 10 - 15 from easy to moderate, finishing on some closer to my limit.

He reckoned I should warm up the same way I do for max hangs at home. 15-20 mins of progressively heavier but very short hangs, finished off with some explosive pulls and Tyler Nelson escque recruitment pulls.  Typically I do:

Jump start pulls ups, dropping off (i.e. only upward pull, but assisted with some momentum). maybe 5 x 2

Some press ups and shoulder mobility

5 second hangs on big edge with feet on floor, maybe 5 secs on, 10-15 off. Do about 5 of those.

same with feet off floor

Then steadily ramp up by dropping edge size. As the difficulty goes up, the rest does too. My last hangs will be near max with at least a minute in between. Then it's one or two medium problems to get some coordination and core, then get on projects.

Changing to this warm up instantly got me up a few problems that I was struggling to do in parts

Should be noted that I'm not operating in the upper bouldering grades, more like Font 7A-7B on a good day - focus is always more sport (7c/8a) and trad.

Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?

Also, stretching, don't forget that vigorous stretching of any of the main climbing muscles on rest days *is* work. You can add quite a bit of load in a stretch and it might not be aiding recovery?  (this last bit is a pet theory of mine - would love to see some SCIENCE to back up / refute but don't have the time right now - all I know if that too vigorous stretching has definitely slowed recovery from slight strains for me in the past, specially flexor unit strains. In fact, I used to stretch forearms loads and get loads of flexor unit strains, now I rarely stretch (deffo should do a bit more) and never get the strains. Haven't had one in years - used to get them multiple times a year) n=1
 

[Ballsofcottonwool]

I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one. She was plenty cosy enough that I could even keep the window open for more fresh air which I've also founds improves recovery.

Worth bearing in mind also that a raised body temperature at night is a sign of your body working really hard to repair itself,  the answer might just be to cut some of the intensity/volume from your training.

Also +1 on the cutting down the water intake before bed, I don't drink anything at all after 6pm(dinner). and have noticed I stay asleeo longer,

[Fultonius]

, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one.

Partner Duvet with different weights  (or one of you wear thicker/thinner/no PJs)

[DavidM]

I often have trouble sleeping because my wife likes to be much hotter in bed than me. We've always had winter and summer weight duvets, but last autumn when the summer one was getting to cold for her, I put the winter one on the bed for her and left me with the summer weight one.

Good shout. After having kids and the whole sleep question is a topic of conversation the Mrs convinced me to buy a dual all silk duvet and pillow which I felt was ridiculously expensive at the time (£250 duvet & £70 pillow) but soon eat my hat because it was best purchase ever considering you spend half your life in bed. I get super hot at night compared to her and this allow all the heat to disperse and instantly better nights sleep. Normal synthetic duvet and pillows are now intolerable.

[DavidM]

Could too much volume in the warm up just be adding to the overall load?

[/quote]

To clarify the warm up / strength sets...

Bike from work 8 mins then couple quick pull ups to get going

No hangs portable block from floor

3 lifts - half crimp
 5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge

First set @ 33kg
Second set @ 37kg
Third set @ 42kg
Fourth set @ 46kg
Fifth set @ 46kg

4 mins rest between hangs

(Weighted pull ups during the 4 mins)

2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg

Grip 2 - back 2
 5 seconds on 3 seconds off @ 14mm edge
First set @ 17kg
Second set @19kg
Third set @ 20kg
Fourth set @22kg

4 mins rest between hangs

(Weighted chin ups during the 4 mins)
2-3 reps
First set @ 27kg
Second set @ 29kg
Third set @ 32kg
Fourth set @ 32kg

Sometimes I only do one grip and it takes 25 mins and drop the chin ups. Sometimes two grips and chins ups take 45 min.

Then warm up the legs and hit the board. 1 easy warm up problem and then 2-3 medium hard problems then straight into the limit / project stuff

Thinking to get strength stuff in while fresh and build in an efficient warm up. Maybe all wrong.

[cheque]

The only times in my life when I’ve regularly needed to get out of bed in the night for a piss have been during periods of stress. Obviously everyone’s different but I think it’s more a symptom of sleeping lightly than of how much you’ve drunk.

[tim palmer]

Seems like a heck of a lot of "warm up" but I dunno everyone is different, maybe something to toy with though. If you don't mind a crass question how hard are you climbing? 

Do you need to do all of the antagonists in the same session? 

[GazM]

That warm up sounds longer than some of my whole sessions!

[mrjonathanr]

If you're getting up multiple times a night to piss (or even once) then you might actually be drinking too much water too late at night and screwing up your sleep cycle. Some good info here
https://www.risescience.com/blog/drinking-water-before-bed

You might also be getting older and producing less Anti-Diuretic Hormone.

[DavidM]

Its not a warm up per say just a way to get some strength work in whilst fresh and get warm simultaneously.

Hard to say what I’m climbing as I’ve only been training for a bit as I’ve had a second child recently but around 7a-7b so not hard at all. Not had much opportunity to get outdoors or at the wall at moment hence training volume I guess.

In terms of the antagonist stuff no it doesn’t have to be in same session but being time poor and recovery days needed I don’t want to through in more dedicated sessions to that if I’m honest and ultimately shoulders and elbows suffer without it.

[Bradders]

I’ve had a second child recently

Surely we've hit on the big issue here? How recent is this?

My personal experience is that at least the first 8-10 months of fatherhood, where for various reasons I was doing the majority of nighttime care, really knocked me in terms of interrupted / lack of sleep. It's one of those things that's hard to quantify, in that I could seemingly function somewhere close to normally during the day, go to work, drive, climb and train etc. And clearly some days / weeks were better than others. But overall I was consistently, deeply, fatigued and it's only more recently (at c. 16 months now) that I've started to recognise how much it was affecting me, and how different I feel now that she sleeps through the night more often / goes back to sleep more easily.

Obviously every parent is different and I don't know what your set up is with your partner, but this seems like it must be having an impact?

[DavidM]

Yeah it is but not as much as the first child I guess. The Mrs is doing the night as she’s breastfeeding exclusively so my nighttime is “ok” I often sleep with the boy in his room to escape. She’s defo doing the heavy lifting which is great but I get up early to take over so she rest before boy goes to school. I guess it’s going round back to the original post of how and what people do in these family situations to optimise recovery and any tips that have helped with experience.

I’m getting impression it might be a combination of over training and lifestyle factors.

Thanks for all the feedback.

[MischaHY]

The only times in my life when I’ve regularly needed to get out of bed in the night for a piss have been during periods of stress. Obviously everyone’s different but I think it’s more a symptom of sleeping lightly than of how much you’ve drunk.

One of the most bizarre things I've experienced recently has been that I started to drink quite a bit more water (~2l more per day) and my need to piss at night has gone. I used to always wake around 2-3am for a piss which was actually really annoying especially when in the van or bivvying.

[MischaHY]

Hi all,

Hoping to see if anyone can help with some wisdom and experience. I've noticed in recent years recovery isn't as good despite doing the usual things and living clean. I'm now 38 with two kids which is to be expected I guess but i'm always looking to improve sleep and recovery. I train in the evening usually between 5pm-7.30pm exclusively bouldering and board climb, eat after and regularly get my 8 hours sleep kids permitting. The thought of training at 4am won't work for me as I have the kids before work. 

Outside of the normal recommended advice stretching, massage, adequate nutrition / refuelling, extra sleep, shorter sessions, avoiding alcohol and excess caffeine etc does anyone have any specific tips that have helped them or moved the needle?

Things that have moved the needle for me

-Not training too close to bed time i.e finishing session by latest 7.30pm and in bed by 10.30pm.
-Cold showers in morning
-Hot showers after evening climbing session
-Supplementing with glycine to lower body temperature after training in the evening
-Supplementing with Magnesium in the evening
-Drinking a lot more water after session so your hydrated throughout the night (Piss a lot during the night though)

I know there is a lot of info online but good to hear if anything worked for people that might help me and others aiming to get the most out of the training they are putting in.

thanks in Advance

I personally think your volume sounds reasonable and you clearly have your nutrition and lifestyle factors far more dialed than most people (including several pro climbers I know!).

That being said I think the pitfall here is that you've not got enough diversity in your training. You're doing a lot of high quality strength training and finger loading which is all great but needs to be kept more diverse in order to avoid overuse niggles that can lead on to proper injuries. From a training perspective you're also missing out on the opportunity to diversify your physical profile by working on similar stimuli in every session.

I'd advise swapping out one of your regular limit sessions for a power endurance session such as 3X6 ( 3 reps at flash limit with 30s-1min rest, 4 min rest between sets).

I'd also move the non-finger based stuff like weighted pulls to after the board session.

Something you didn't mention at all is a structure behind all the training which leads me to think that you're simply repeating this week-in week-out. When doing this kind of structured training it's really important to lay it onto a framework that includes deload periods to let the body recover. It's also important to build some progressive overload into this timeframe otherwise you can find yourself doing the same thing for several months but staying at a fairly similar level because you're handling the load easily.

Personally I like to use 4 week mesocycles with 3 week training blocks and 1 week deload.

Hope this helps 

[DavidM]

Thanks MischaHY that really does help I guess I do fall into that trap of not sticking to a structured cycle.

Strangely I had been doing some 4x4s recently to vary the sessions if feeling weak or not pulling hard but was wondering if they would be most applicable for boulderers only. It's one thing I have overlooked power endurance and endurance for bouldering upon reflection. These intervals look good I will try.

Few questions

-Do you dedicate a whole session to these intervals.?
-In your 4 week cycles do you place the overload week 3 and de-load on week 4.
-What exactly does a de load week look like.? Half the volume / Half the intensity for example?
-How else do you see I could diversify my training?

Really appreciate everyone's input

[GazM]

Apologies if I've missed a post but has DavidM said what he's generally training for?

[tomtom]

Shit - I should have been training FOR something all this time? what have I done with my life 🤦‍♂️

😁

[GazM]

 Revolutionary thinking, I know!

[DavidM]

GazM

I only boulder and live in London so climb the Cornish granite options below as they are local to me. Sometimes get to the southern sandstone crags.I have yearly trips to North Wales to just enjoy climbing but that's dropped off with kids. I acutely aware I am not dedicating enough time to outdoor climbing or even varied gym climbing at the moment with my second child born in August but trying to maintain some strength and fitness with some training during this period.

Two projects 7a+ on these two blocks currently.

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/shoreditch_park_boulder-9490/

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/mabley_green_boulder-9499/

Best of what I can make of my location with work.

[GazM]

Cool, thanks for replying. While everyone was giving their advice it struck me that without actually knowing what you were aiming for, the advice could be wildly off the mark!

Fortunately for you I know very little about training and have never performed at a high level so can't offer any good advice. However, I do have 2 young kids (3 and 5) and a basic home setup so have been following the thread with interest.