[mark20]

I really like the Metolius Super Chalk and can definitely feel the difference (my skin and cuticles will crack if I don't wash it off) but the new packaging on Metolius Super Chalk doesn't mention a drying agent, and a quick google says that "The latest formula of Metolius Super Chalk (as of 10/05/2022) is 100% magnesium carbonate without any drying agent."
I can't find any other chalk that mentions using a drying agent.

https://mattfordengineering.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/lab06.pdf This cool little experiment recons the drying agent is Silicon Dioxide.

Silicon Dioxide is readily available online, in various forms. I'm guessing I'm going to need a super fine powder , but there is a lot of jargon about micron-scale mesh / nanoscale mesh / -325 mesh. I'm assuming this is a measure of the grain size? Is there anyone with some knowledge in chemistry on here who can advise what sort of thing I'd be looking for?
And any guesses how much to mix in with chalk, or whether it's just a really bad idea and I'm going to burn my hands etc?

Thanks

[Will Hunt]

What the hell are we sweaty-handed people supposed to do it they take the drying agent out of the product who's sole purpose is to dry your fucking hands?
 

[mrjonathanr]

What does antihydral do?

[Fiend]

What the hell are we sweaty-handed people supposed to do it they take the drying agent out of the product who's sole purpose is to dry your fucking hands?
 

TBT: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30905.msg617907.html#msg617907 

[SA Chris]

Has my old stock gone up in value then?

How is the new packaging different, so i can grab some of the old stuff if I see it.

[SA Chris]

Just had a look, the new one is in a gold bag?

[Will Hunt]

What the hell are we sweaty-handed people supposed to do it they take the drying agent out of the product who's sole purpose is to dry your fucking hands?
 

TBT: https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,30905.msg617907.html#msg617907 

Friction Labs stuff is for the send go. I'm not a millionaire.

[mark20]

The new stuff is in a brown bag. The new packaging doesn't mention it has drying agent in it, but various websites show a photo of the new bag but with the old product description. Some still show a photo of the old bag, but I'm not sure I want to risk buying it only to find it's the new stuff without the drying agent

[SA Chris]

ok, golden brown.

(textured like sun).

I'd check before buying. Sportshoes.com has a picture of the old stuff, but doubt they would know the difference.

[SA Chris]

Absolute snow confirmed they have the old stuff, i ordered 4 bags, free postage.

https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/V/Metolius_Super_Chalk_Rock_Climbing_Chalk_127g-(71863)

[mark20]

Thanks Chris, that'll keep me ticking over whilst I complete my experiments with cheap chalk + SiO2

[Danny]

Would be super interesting to hear how you get on with this. Best case is DIY friction labs type chalk for, presumably, much less £££.

[SA Chris]

I also bought a bag of BD Black Gold while I was shopping their website, see how it compares.

[SA Chris]

Absolute snow confirmed they have the old stuff, i ordered 4 bags, free postage.

https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/V/Metolius_Super_Chalk_Rock_Climbing_Chalk_127g-(71863)

Scratch that. In spite of reassurances i was getting the old stuff, the sent the new stuff.  Arses.

[Ballsofcottonwool]

What the hell are we sweaty-handed people supposed to do it they take the drying agent out of the product who's sole purpose is to dry your fucking hands?

I'm not surprised they took out the silicon dioxide

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/silicosis/

[mrjonathanr]

Absolute snow confirmed they have the old stuff, i ordered 4 bags, free postage.

https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/V/Metolius_Super_Chalk_Rock_Climbing_Chalk_127g-(71863)

Scratch that. In spite of reassurances i was getting the old stuff, the sent the new stuff.  Arses.

Several packs of this arrived today. It is the old stuff, as pictured.
https://rockrun.com/products/metolius-super-chalk-4-5oz-127g?variant=31453657352

[SA Chris]

Damn, just ordered some stuff from RnR too, thanks.

[mrjonathanr]

If it’s chalk you are after, order the discounted big 450g bag of Camp chalk as well and your shipping is free. That’s what I did. Should keep you going for a while!

[SA Chris]

Just did exactly that!

[SA Chris]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/silicosis/

I think the minute quantity in quantity and the amount inhaled would put climbers at minimal risk.

[mikenty]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/silicosis/

I think the minute quantity in quantity and the amount inhaled would put climbers at minimal risk.

But maybe not if you worked in a climbing wall over a number of years?

[MischaHY]

https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/silicosis/

I think the minute quantity in quantity and the amount inhaled would put climbers at minimal risk.

But maybe not if you worked in a climbing wall over a number of years?

Our local gym had some people from a university in doing air quality tests and the conclusion was that particle size isn't small enough to have an impact on health.

[mikenty]

Let hope they’re proved right?
I like Metolius super chalk and use it, but there is a sign in our local wall specifically asking climbers not to use chalk with additives there, which I’m personally happy to go with indoors. It’s their risk.

[mikenty]

Although on reflection this is for common skin reaction reasons 
However I stand by my point that it’s a potentially unpleasant substance if inhaled that climbers can get by without indoors!

[MischaHY]

I also don't think there's any need for it when people can just condition their skin using really available products. I have naturally very sweaty skin but a suitably regular application of Antihydral easily sorts it. Skin quality is much more important than chalk type IMO.

[mark20]

Would be super interesting to hear how you get on with this. Best case is DIY friction labs type chalk for, presumably, much less £££.

Not quite - FrictionLabs is "pure" Magnesium Carbonate with no drying agents or additives. Looking at the analysis in the link from the first post, looks like the Metolius stuff is too, but with 0.5% SiO2 added.
I've never used FrictionLabs but looking at that I'm not sure what the hype is - maybe it has been dried better so has less water content? Plenty of reputable folk on here say they notice a difference though.

Misha, you're right and anti-hydral really helps, but for me doesn't totally stop sweating especially on a long session, mincing my squidgy digits into pebbly grit holds. I'm certain I get an extra few % with the old Metolius chalk.

My SiO2 arrived today, so will begin my experiments in the coming days and report back.

[mrjonathanr]

Not quite - FrictionLabs is "pure" Magnesium Carbonate with no drying agents or additives. Looking at the analysis in the link from the first post, looks like the Metolius stuff is too, but with 0.5% SiO2 added.
I've never used FrictionLabs but looking at that I'm not sure what the hype is - maybe it has been dried better so has less water content?

When crystals are created from a solution there is a quantity of water bonded in. It’s a long time since my school chemistry, and no doubt there are much better informed posters who could advise, but I expect your explanation may lie in the water of crystallisation.

[Will Hunt]

Not quite - FrictionLabs is "pure" Magnesium Carbonate with no drying agents or additives. Looking at the analysis in the link from the first post, looks like the Metolius stuff is too, but with 0.5% SiO2 added.

I've been led to believe that while many brands claim to be pure magnesium carbonate, very few (none?) actually are. They all have varying "purities" (not sure if that's the right word. I'm not a chemist).

[remus]

I've been led to believe that while many brands claim to be pure magnesium carbonate, very few (none?) actually are. They all have varying "purities" (not sure if that's the right word. I'm not a chemist).

Frankly I think the friction labs marketing about purity is bollocks. If you want high purity magnesium carbonate you can buy it from chemical suppliers (and pretty cheaply too), it tends to come as a very finely textured powder though which feels whack. Im pretty unconvinced that having chalk that is 99.9% MgCO3 rather than 99.5% makes any noticeable difference.

If there is anything substantially different about friction labs I suspect it's to do with the texture of it. Perhaps they put some more effort in to getting a nice mix of grain sizes compared to other manufacturers? (Apologies to anyone who knows the correct technical terms for this stuff, Im sure Im butchering it).

[mrjonathanr]

Talking about MgCO3 suggests chalk is composed of discrete magnesium carbonate molecules. As far as I can see, this isn’t what you get in climbing chalk, but MgCO3 bonded to water. As an example, google throws up this research paper. https://journals.iucr.org/c/issues/2020/03/00/lg3251/lg3251.pdf

The first paragraph outlines the conversion of Magnesium Carbonate Hexahydrate MgCO3-6H2O to Magnesium Carbonate Trihydrate MgCO3-3H2O. Clearly differing crystals which I’d expect to have some differing properties. There must be considerable variation possible in how many water molecules are bonded to the magnesium carbonate in your sweaty paws.

Any chemists willing to enlighten us?

[Will Hunt]

Absolute snow confirmed they have the old stuff, i ordered 4 bags, free postage.

https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/V/Metolius_Super_Chalk_Rock_Climbing_Chalk_127g-(71863)

Just received my delivery. It's the new stuff. Hopefully it's not shit.

[Eddies]

The science: https://www.climbernews.com/upsalite-climbing-chalk/

[mark20]

Great info, thanks. I'm surprised I hadn't heard of upsalite before, looks like Black Diamond sell it https://www.bananafingers.co.uk/chalk/black-diamond/pure-gold-upsalite-chalk
Pricey, but could be good for redpoints.

I will have to get some and compare with the SiO2.


I did a little experiment whilst fingerboarding a couple of days ago.
Metolius superchalk in one chalk bag, Metolius superchalk + SiO2 drying agent in the other.
I cocked up my ratio and the mix is about 10% drying agent, rather than the 0.5%ish in the original Superchalk.

The difference between the two was very noticeable. It was bad conditions in the cellar, mild and humid. Doing repeaters on wooden holds, the plain chalk was getting damp and needed brushing off between repeaters, and chalk slapped back on again for another set.
But on the drying agent hand, the hold stayed dry and chalked and the hand was clearly much drier and didn't really need to put more chalk back on.
Actually, on wooden holds in humid conditions, the slightly damp plain chalk felt a bit better, almost 'sticky damp'.
But I suspect outside, especially on grit, the drying agent chalk will feel a lot better as it feels as though it is actively drying the skin. I definitely wanted to wash my hands straight away after my session. The main finding was that the drying agent does work, I just need to tweak my ratios and test on some rock

[sdm]

I'll be interested to hear how people get on with upsalite.

Black Diamond have been selling white gold / black gold for a few years now.

My assumption is that you would hear people raving about it if it was as effective as the claims. I've never heard anybody raving about it so I've assumed it's not worth the money. I haven't tested it for myself though.

Maybe Black Diamond need to hire the Friction Labs marketing guys.

[jwi]

Nothing would surprise me more than learning that MgO3 does not absorb enough water to dry out my hands, and that I would get dryer hands quicker and therefore climb harder by applying some other salt. This other salt also would need to have same or better rolling resistance when placed between rock and a sweaty hand.

I have super sweaty hands and have never found any difference between brands. I just buy the cheapest available that has a decent crunchiness/ease of application. Have I missed a trick? Could I climb 8c by just forking out some more of my hard earned euros?

[Fultonius]

I take it you've tried anti-hydral / other skin drying agents?

[SA Chris]

Absolute snow confirmed they have the old stuff, i ordered 4 bags, free postage.

https://www.absolute-snow.co.uk/V/Metolius_Super_Chalk_Rock_Climbing_Chalk_127g-(71863)

Just received my delivery. It's the new stuff. Hopefully it's not shit.

See later comment, they got it all wrong, very apologetic, but at least they do free returns.

[jwi]

I take it you've tried anti-hydral / other skin drying agents?

I cannot use anti-hydral as I have very very thick skin, and that just makes it worse

[mark20]

Update 6 months on,
I've been using it at about 2%-5% ish, grit bouldering and more recently limestone and it definitely helps actually dry the skin. I often chalk up when resting and can feel the skin actually dry out a bit and feel good again for climbing. Like the original superchalk, the benefits are more noticable on gritstone where skin condition is a bit factor for me. I've given drying agent to a few mates gineau pigs and all have neutral or slightly positive experiences, Haydn is a big fan and has gone through about 500g of the stuff! No ill effects yet

[Nike Air]

Are you basically adding silicon crystals to your chalk?

[mark20]

Yes as a fine powder, from here
https://www.claymansupplies.co.uk/Products/Details/5165~500

[webbo]

Yes as a fine powder, from here
https://www.claymansupplies.co.uk/Products/Details/5165~500

I like the bit where it says The dust is extremely hazardous  ☢️

[Dexter]

Yes as a fine powder, from here
https://www.claymansupplies.co.uk/Products/Details/5165~500

I like the bit where it says The dust is extremely hazardous  ☢️

Seconding this, silcosis is pretty bad and irreversible so I'd avoid over use
https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/silicosis/

[Nike Air]

Yes as a fine powder, from here
https://www.claymansupplies.co.uk/Products/Details/5165~500

Thanks. I notice after purifying water at work through a similar product my hands get incredibly dry, almost too dry.

[mark20]

As mentioned a few times, it seems this stuff can be quite nasty. As a precaution, I take care to pour it in very gently when adding it to my chalk bag and then close it and shake to mix it in. I use a separate chalk bag without the drying agent in for training in the cellar or on the rare occasion I go to a climbing wall
I'm fairly happy that exposure is minimal
I also wonder if that once it is in the chalk bag and mixed up, it will bond with the chalk so forms larger dust particles which will be more easily removed / less dangerous in the lungs ??

[Dingdong]

I can’t lie, I wouldn’t chance it just to have dry hands when there’s definitely other safer alternatives…

[SA Chris]

Likewise. I know it's just a study, but fuck that

https://www.ehstoday.com/archive/article/21913539/study-looks-at-possible-link-between-skin-exposure-to-silica-and-autoimmune-disorders

[Will Hunt]

I've been using the new super chalk which apparently doesn't have the drying agent that was in the old stuff. I haven't noticed any difference in how well it works so don't see a need to be taking a risk with dodgy powders.

In the words of a climbing chemist friend who runs a university geology lab and knows about materials hazards:
"https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,33364.msg679374.html#msg679374 this might actually be some of the dumbest fucking shit I’ve seen in climbing

At least he’s not using it indoors so the only person he’s going to fuck up is most likely himself

Silicosis can cripple you, it’s not dissimilar to asbestosis but you’re unlikely to actually die from it

I quite often get small clouds of chalk dust in my face when chalking up/removing excess. They’ll be breathing in the silica dust whenever they do that…

It may well be ok. Personally I wouldn’t take the risk. I’d like my lungs to keep functioning so that I can keep climbing/doing stuff into old age rather than being bedridden, sucking on an oxygen cylinder to get enough breath just to say a few words all so I could have slightly less sweaty hands in my 30s."

[i.munro]

Is nobody going to mention the fact that this is not only a personal risk?
Even if used only outside others will inevitably be breathing this crap when brushing holds.
There is also the effect on the rock to consider. Short-term it will absorb moisture from the air turning into a slimy mess. - long term we have no information what damage it might do.

[mark20]

this might actually be some of the dumbest fucking shit I’ve seen in climbing

Really? It's the same stuff that has been in Superchalk for years.

There is also the effect on the rock to consider. Short-term it will absorb moisture from the air turning into a slimy mess. - long term we have no information what damage it might do.

20+ (?) years of superchalk use, and probably others.
At <5% mix I can't imagine it turning into any more slimy mess than normal chalk. Possible less so, as less chalk required!

I'm not too concerned about the risk from inhalation, as I can minimise that. But the skin contact theory post by SA Chris is interesting. Perhaps I should cut out all the shampoos, deodrants and foods (!) that use it as an additive as well.

[Scouse D]

I don't think we need to be overly worried about our exposure to Silicon dioxide. This is from the HSE website for stonemasons (I tried to think of the occupation with the highest potential exposure to shitloads of silica dust). RCS is respirable Crystallise Silica.

 "If you are exposed to RCS then you are at risk of developing silicosis. This disease makes breathing more difficult and increases the risk of lung infections. Silicosis usually follows many years of exposure to RCS. Exceptionally high exposures over a few months or years can cause acute silicosis, which can cause death within months of exposure. Heavy and prolonged exposure to RCS under the conditions that produce silicosis can cause lung cancer"

[sirlockoff]

I don't think we need to be overly worried about our exposure to Silicon dioxide. This is from the HSE website for stonemasons (I tried to think of the occupation with the highest potential exposure to shitloads of silica dust). RCS is respirable Crystallise Silica.

 "If you are exposed to RCS then you are at risk of developing silicosis. This disease makes breathing more difficult and increases the risk of lung infections. Silicosis usually follows many years of exposure to RCS. Exceptionally high exposures over a few months or years can cause acute silicosis, which can cause death within months of exposure. Heavy and prolonged exposure to RCS under the conditions that produce silicosis can cause lung cancer"

that's a pass from me

[Dingdong]

I don't think we need to be overly worried about our exposure to Silicon dioxide. This is from the HSE website for stonemasons (I tried to think of the occupation with the highest potential exposure to shitloads of silica dust). RCS is respirable Crystallise Silica.

 "If you are exposed to RCS then you are at risk of developing silicosis. This disease makes breathing more difficult and increases the risk of lung infections. Silicosis usually follows many years of exposure to RCS. Exceptionally high exposures over a few months or years can cause acute silicosis, which can cause death within months of exposure. Heavy and prolonged exposure to RCS under the conditions that produce silicosis can cause lung cancer"

I can’t tell the first paragraph is sarcasm  fuck that noise. Mark, probably best you don’t expose yourself and others to this stuff mate. Really not worth it to have slightly drier skin.

[SA Chris]

Perhaps I should cut out all the shampoos, deodrants and foods (!) that use it as an additive as well.

Maybe you should. I have friends who have eczema and the like who do.

[ajh]

Really? It's the same stuff that has been in Superchalk for years.

You don't know that. It might be SiO2. It could be a Ca silicate. It could be some random contamination brought in from just about anywhere in the production process - Si isn't exactly a rare element. Without confirmation from Metolius or a much more rigorous study (the one on the first page is pretty dire, unfortunately - all it really says is climbing chalk is not very chemically pure; hardly a revelation to most people) there is no way of knowing.

If it is SiO2 then it is very, very, very unlikely to be crystalline SiO2 - this is a really important distinction that hasn't been mentioned yet although the study alludes to it. It is much more likely to be amorphous - i.e. silica gel. There isn't too much out there about the health risks of inhaling this rather than the crystalline form but there is a bit of research to suggest the risks are significantly lower (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11876495/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15279029/ which came up from a quick google).

Finally, if - if - it is SiO2, then Metolius have removed it for a reason. I'd like to know what that reason was before I started trying to make my own and sticking it in my chalk bag.

"If you are exposed to RCS then you are at risk of developing silicosis. This disease makes breathing more difficult and increases the risk of lung infections. Silicosis usually follows many years of exposure to RCS. Exceptionally high exposures over a few months or years can cause acute silicosis, which can cause death within months of exposure. Heavy and prolonged exposure to RCS under the conditions that produce silicosis can cause lung cancer"

True but why roll the dice by deliberately exposing yourself to the stuff?

[sirlockoff]

Perhaps I should cut out all the shampoos, deodrants and foods (!) that use it as an additive as well.

Maybe you should. I have friends who have eczema and the like who do.

my friends eczema flares up as soon as he uses super chalk, he hasn't tried the newer version yet

[mark20]

Really? It's the same stuff that has been in Superchalk for years.

You don't know that. It might be SiO2. It could be a Ca silicate. It could be some random contamination brought in from just about anywhere in the production process - Si isn't exactly a rare element. Without confirmation from Metolius or a much more rigorous study (the one on the first page is pretty dire, unfortunately - all it really says is climbing chalk is not very chemically pure; hardly a revelation to most people) there is no way of knowing.

If it is SiO2 then it is very, very, very unlikely to be crystalline SiO2 - this is a really important distinction that hasn't been mentioned yet although the study alludes to it. It is much more likely to be amorphous - i.e. silica gel. There isn't too much out there about the health risks of inhaling this rather than the crystalline form but there is a bit of research to suggest the risks are significantly lower (e.g. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/11876495/ and https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15279029/ which came up from a quick google).

Finally, if - if - it is SiO2, then Metolius have removed it for a reason. I'd like to know what that reason was before I started trying to make my own and sticking it in my chalk bag.

Thanks for this info.
I've had it confirmed to be SiO2, specifically "cabosil" which as you say is amorphous / fumed Silica. The stuff I  bought is 'flour' which sounds like it contains crystalline silica, so I will ditch this stuff.
They say they removed it as all other chalk manufacturers are marketing "pure chalk" etc and wanted to be in line with that. Though, obviously if it was because they thought the drying agent was unsafe I wouldn't expect them to admit it!