[mrjonathanr]

Hi Simon, may be talking at cross purposes here. The Forwyn gear I saw on Quickstep and that wall is the so-called “peg bolts”, but not always, as far as I could tell, in old placements, some being drilled in what looked like solid rock. Caveat, it’s hard to be definitive when clipping pumped or abbing past.

[petejh]

Further to a discussion on FB I’ve been told that any drilling has been limited to drilling out old pegs.

Is that the case Pete? Andy?

I think that's impossible to answer, isn't it? Define 'drilling out old pegs' - does it include drilling next to an old peg placement? If so, how 'next' to the placement is 'next to the placement'? What about an already broken peg, does that count? Can you show me a record showing every peg where there is now a bolt in its place? Guidebooks aren't definitive. I don't claim to know the number and location of all pegs where there are now bolts - my main point throughout this debate hasn't been 'they must not be placed', it has been 'we must be transparent that they are bolts'.

But my best answer would be this Anchorman gif:

 https://media.tenor.com/sKbXk3XNHksAAAAd/i-dont-believe-you.gif

[andy moles]

I abbed down Manhattan Highrise / Katie’s Delight whilst descending from an adjacent route. Didn’t see anything that pointed to old pegs- these routes are quite new, aren’t they? 2019 and 2015? Just looked like common-or-garden bolts to me.

Those routes start up the original route of the wall, Manhattan (which basically traverses off at the point where the bolts run out). The highest (fourth) bolt is an expansion bolt, the others are all P bolts in horizontal breaks/pockets.

I'm not certain what the original state of Manhattan was, but the 2013 description mentions two pegs. I think two of the bolts are in the places of the original pegs and one is a new placement, but with all the glue in the placements you can't see any rust stains of old pegs.

Looking at the depth of the breaks/pockets I can imagine not much drilling would have been needed here, but again it's hard to tell.

[shark]

I think that's impossible to answer, isn't it? Define 'drilling out old pegs' - does it include drilling next to an old peg placement? If so, how 'next' to the placement is 'next to the placement'? What about an already broken peg, does that count? Can you show me a record showing every peg where there is now a bolt in its place? Guidebooks aren't definitive. I don't claim to know the number and location of all pegs where there are now bolts - my main point throughout this debate hasn't been 'they must not be placed', it has been 'we must be transparent that they are bolts'.

Fair points but I think I see where they are coming from in that if it is a drilled out rusty peg or peg stub (which they believe is the case fir all the peg bolts at Gogarth) then it is more peg-like than bolt-like because that it is in a place that the peg was which must have been a point of natural weakness in the first place.

[Potash]

Fair points but I think I see where they are coming from in that if it is a drilled out rusty peg or peg stub (which they believe is the case fir all the peg bolts at Gogarth) then it is more peg-like than bolt-like because that it is in a place that the peg was which must have been a point of natural weakness in the first place.

I'd agree that this seems to be the dividing line.

Does the historical president set by the existence of a peg make this peg-like or does the use of drilling a hole (and placing a chemically glued) piton/bolt more bolt like.

I'm of the opinion that if you start chipping gear and drilling holes this is the fundamental point rather than the fact there had once been a peg.

I find the "once there was fixed gear" argument really slippery.

Can I place a shoddy RURP on abseil, leave it for twenty minutes before whipping it out and drilling a sinker placement?

What about pegs that people "remember being there"?

What about pegs that were always marginal?

What about routes like (possibly) the trumpet blowers at Scimitar Ridge, I recall one route described as being protected by five pegs, three cut down and the FA can't remember which ones.

The fact that the peg-bolt project appears to have been a misdirection from it's conception there is little trust regarding this.

(Having watched bolting in the bolt free Arches National park using their historic fixed gear replacement loophole based on the description of abseil pegs in historical FA descriptions this will happen)

[abarro81]

I bet I could rebolt most of the Kilnsey roof routes based on natural weaknesses. Actually you wouldn't even need to rebolt most of them if "a few inches from a peg placement" is legit. Can I take E10 if all those expansion bolts are now "peg-like"  ? I think many of them are only 10mm actually so maybe E11?

[petejh]

Fair points but I think I see where they are coming from in that if it is a drilled out rusty peg or peg stub (which they believe is the case fir all the peg bolts at Gogarth) then it is more peg-like than bolt-like because that it is in a place that the peg was which must have been a point of natural weakness in the first place.

It isn't 'more peg like than bolt-like' to place a resin bolt in an old peg placement - it's a resin bolt in a peg placement. Call it what it is.

What you're saying is ridiculous when you stop to think it through:

Example:
1. Old rusty peg at Gogarth. I drill it out using a 12mm drill bit (or drill next to it). Clean out the 12mm drilled hole, inject resin, insert a custom-made 12mm diameter stainless steel piece of fixed gear that looks, works and is placed exactly like a bolt (because it is a bolt..), but which I've decided to name eco peg and the local BMC write it up in a bolting policy as eco peg. Resin sets, job done.
2. Old rusty peg at Gogarth. I drill it out using a 12mm drill bit (or drill next to it). Clean out the drilled 12mm hole, inject rein, insert a popular brand of 12mm stainless bolt made by for e.g. Petzl, Bolt Products, Fixe, Titan. Resin sets, job done.
 
End result = exactly the same, 2 bolts replacing 2 old pegs.

Spot the difference? Nope, because there is no difference! We're discussing placing bolts at Gogarth and elsewhere. How many times does it need saying until it's clear. The level of self-deceit around acknowledging that these are bolts amazes me.

[Johnny Brown]

I don't agree.

The point of difference is the placement, not the fixture.

Bolts are normally placed where no opportunity for natural protection exists. Pegs have to go where the rock allows.
(PS I've just measured and they'll go in a 10mm hole).

For me the distinction is best illustrated by (for me obvs) the ideal trad peg history - placed on lead (onsight, first ascent ideally) by a pioneer in the 50's or 60's completely strung out with shit boots, a hemp waistline, waist belay and no other protection options, perhaps served first as a rest or aid point, subsequently relegated to pro for free climbing in the 70's. It remains as a piece of history to be clipped but not trusted, a touchstone to the boldness of the early pioneers. I can think of loads where you imagine trying to place it without all the modern crutches and the mind boggles. It has nothing in common with a bolt drilled on abseil.

But in reality many pegs were placed on abseil for a subsequent lead. In my mind these sit in a middle ground - natural placement, non-trad attitude. This distinction is for me really important and the dividing line between good and bad style but rarely recognized - people seem to prefer the perhaps simpler divisions of hammered or fixed.



Chris's video is worth watching. Takeaway points for those TL:DW;
He knows his onions. There are only a handful of people in the world qualified as both Mountain Guides and IRATA Assessors, Chris is one. There are few more active climbers in Wales over the last 40? years.
Pegs have evolved. Some of those 'old' pegs actually get replaced semi-regularly by people like Chris (e.g. Byzantium - I had no idea).
Avoiding corrosion is difficult and needs avoidance of ferrous contamination.
Old pegs are often really hard to get out.
Beating around the bush does no one any favours however well-intentioned. Spoiler: just watch 6:00-6:30 if you want a big laugh. This is perhaps the nub.

In the vast majority of cases I'm opposed to replacement except where 'crucial' (to be discussed case-by-case). I have experimented with removal and it can be difficult to the point of impossible without significant damage to the rock.

I also think while the debate is healthy is is largely academic. Actions are taken by the motivated and they tend not to be the type to debate on forums or accept guidance by committee.

[abarro81]

I'm not sure I understand what you disagree with JB. I understand Pete's point to be that a bolt is a bolt even if you put it in or next to a peg placement, and even if you make it look less like a bolt... which seems spot on to me. Are you disagreeing with that?
Are you saying it's somehow not a bolt if it's next to/in a natural peg placement? I can think of a few sport routes in Franken where the bolts are next to old pegs... but they're still bolts and if you drilled them directly over the peg that wouldn't change them being bolts. Ditto Kilnsey.

I also think while the debate is healthy is is largely academic. Actions are taken by the motivated and they tend not to be the type to debate on forums or accept guidance by committee.

Agreed, I'm pretty surprised someone hasn't gone and unilaterally debolted Gogarth. It would be interesting to know how much that's because
1) people don't mind Gogarth being bolted in a limited way (i.e. to replace old pegs)
2) people are kidding themselves that these things aren't bolts
3) people just can't be bothered (fair enough - it's would be a right ballache!!)
After 11 pages I feel like most people are surprisingly ok being in camp 1, and those not in camp 1 fall into camps 2 or 3... I guess I would have predicted more strength of feeling (with a few exceptions who think it's bullshit!) and it's worth making sure that's not because of lots of people in camp 2

[spidermonkey09]

I *think* (correct me if wrong), JB is disagreeing with Pete's binary premise that its either a bolt or not a bolt, with no grey area in between. Thats my reading of it anyway. I do think that the placement of pegbolts in old peg placements is less 'bolty' than if they were just put anywhere.

Instinctively I am happier with a pegbolt (or whatever the approved nomenclature is now) being placed in a drilled out old peg placement, or in a crack, than in clean rock. This may be not logical, because it still functions in the way that it would if placed in clean sound rock as all other glue in bolts are on sport routes, but thats still my feeling. Both Pete and Alex have a very logical/sciencey bent that maybe doesn't have space for this illogical distinction? Thats not a criticism, people have different ways of thinking.

Agree that the debate is largely academic. It is healthy on here but not sure the threads on ukc are! More than once I feel like I'm reading attempts to channel the ghost of Ken Wilsons past!

In the vast majority of cases I'm opposed to replacement except where 'crucial' (to be discussed case-by-case)

This is a fair representation of my view I think. If the ongoing debate/spray helps that come about its no bad thing, even if a few of the pegbolts placed are removed.

[abarro81]

I *think* (correct me if wrong), JB is disagreeing with Pete's binary premise that its either a bolt or not a bolt, with no grey area in between. Thats my reading of it anyway. I do think that the placement of pegbolts in old peg placements is less 'bolty' than if they were just put anywhere.

Instinctively I am happier with a pegbolt (or whatever the approved nomenclature is now) being placed in a drilled out old peg placement, or in a crack, than in clean rock. This may be not logical, because it still functions in the way that it would if placed in clean sound rock as all other glue in bolts are on sport routes, but thats still my feeling. Both Pete and Alex have a very logical/sciencey bent that maybe doesn't have space for this illogical distinction?

Ah, ok, I understand (assuming you're right). I guess I just look at it differently - perhaps it's just semantics, but to me it's still a bolt, it's just that it's placed in a more traddy way, or with a nod to the route's original form, or similar. Same with if you took an old Franken route and drilled a few pegs into bolts - it can still be a "trad route" even, but the bolt is a bolt on that "trad route". A hand-drilled bolt on lead might be a different kettle of fish to a glue-in placed on ab, but they are still bolts. Or the top of Groove Train - the bolts are apparently placed like that as they're next to pods that they thought might take gear (but turned out not to). I think having some routes equipped in some kind of hybrid way is fine, in the right circumstance, but they're still bolts, and I'm still surprised that the trad climbers are ok with bolting Gogarth, even if it's in a traddy way!

[Johnny Brown]

I think I'm coming at this from another direction. The whole premise of bolts is that they are placed in blank rock for two reasons - first because no other protection opportunities exist, and second because if you are creating artificial gear it should be in the most solid rock to maximise strength and leaving as little room as possible for failure. While the use of a drill is an obvious dividing line the placing of bolts in peg placements does not follow normal bolt-placement logic.

There are three components - the placement, the object, the fixture. In my view, as above, the placement is most critical, the object largely irrelevant and the fixture grey (pun intended). If you drill a hole and whack in a peg or carrot-bolt it is still a bolt. If you persuade the object into a natural placement it is a peg. Friction will often hold it, but mechanical or chemical aids will aid longevity in either case. To me the big changes in style occurs when a) gear is pre-placed by abseil and b) placements are created using power tools.

Note that in Chris' video he claims that not all these were drilled and not all were glued. And he suggests the use of a chisel, whether 'motorised' or 'rotary' might not always be as simple as drilling a hole. If he's being truthful, and my experience suggest he is, we definitely shouldn't consign them all to bolt-hood. Or consider the possibility that a peg is removed from a crack by hammer, replaced in the same placement by (non-ferrous!) hammer but subsequently a bit of glue added in the interest of longevity. Is this a bolt?

And as much as drilling blank rock is the last resort, it's worth noting that we are lucky to have relatively few areas of unprotectable rock in the UK, but in such areas hand-drilling on lead is typically held in high esteem as best acceptable style.

My problem with insisting on simply defining these peg-replacement bolts as 'just bolts' is that I believe it continues the problematic conflation of pegs and bolts, outlined in my earlier post, as equally ethically dubious 'necessary evils', in which case why not go with the stronger, longer life option? Hence why climbers are fine with pegs being replaced by bolts at Gogarth (all just 'fixed gear') and in future will only lead to the proliferation of bolts anywhere where pegs exist, and the ongoing loss of understanding of the basic premise of trad climbing - which is self-reliance, build-your-own-adventure and meet the place on your own terms - and NOT having anchors council-installed for your safety as in France.

[Potash]

To me the big changes in style occurs when a) gear is pre-placed by abseil and b) placements are created using power tools.

The fact that people are seemingly thinking it ok to manufacture gear placements on trad climbs is the key issue.

[abarro81]

Ah ok, I gettcha, seems like we agree that drilled = bolt anyway

[mrjonathanr]

perhaps it's just semantics, but to me it's still a bolt, it's just that it's placed in a more traddy way, or with a nod to the route's original form, or similar. ….

… but they're still bolts, and I'm still surprised that the trad climbers are ok with bolting Gogarth, even if it's in a traddy way!

Exactly. What sort of peg requires a drill to place it?

Answer: a bolt.

[Fiend]

Can we just start hammering Petzl bolts or ringbolts, without glue, into natural fissures and pockets in the rock, and see how that goes down??

[Fiend]

Interesting continuation of the debate. I tend align with SM90s view:

I do think that the placement of pegbolts in old peg placements is less 'bolty' than if they were just put anywhere.

Instinctively I am happier with a pegbolt (or whatever the approved nomenclature is now) being placed in a drilled out old peg placement, or in a crack, than in clean rock.

I've always seen pegs as different to bolts (bear with me) due to the former having to accept a natural weakness in the rock, and thus the rock dictating where they go - not often in the most convenient place. I like that aspect that they can feel a bit like "fixed trad gear" rather than "sport gear" to me. Conversely I've always seen drilled pegs away from natural weaknesses as pretty much bolts, and drilled and glued stainless pegs as definitely bolts.

In these cases I still find there is a bit of a grey area. If these bolts are placed in almost exactly the same placements, and the same natural weakness, and NEVER placed in drilled placements away from those weaknesses, then that is one aspect in their favour that softens the ethical issue. The other aspects of "being drilled in areas that haven't had drilling previously", and "being drilled and glued and as good as any other bolt, when the original peg had that essential element of doubt even when new" still remain as contentious though.

[petejh]

A few points in response to JB.

1. JB remember I have actually hung on the rope, at Gogarth, with Chris, drilling holes and placing these things. I know how they're installed - i.e. they're most definitely not placed in the same way as pegs, and definitely are drilled glue-in bolts. Some may well be hand placed, but most aren't.
2. A glued peg that goes in without needing drilling is a glued peg (stainless or otherwise).
3. This isn't about any one person. Everyone who knows Chris knows he's a great guy. Appeals to authority should fall on deaf ears. Nobody is questioning anyone's credentials, and credentials aren't relevant to the topic here - the topic is bolts have been placed but they aren't being openly called bolts. I feel I need to keep saying that I'm not blanket for or against any particular placement. The point is about transparency, which is severely lacking here.
4. The twisted semantics around these bolts tells its own story. You don't have this kind of obfuscation and deliberately-veiled language such as 'battery operated hammer-action chisel with a rotary option' or 'eco peg' if there's nothing to hide. A drill is a drill, not a 'battery operated hammer-action chisel with a rotary option'. Drilling is drilling, not 'enhancing depth'. This is the language of bullshit.
5. What's the incentive not to openly call these bolts even though they are? Who benefits?
I'd suggest one incentive is to keep as many people as possible in the dark about the reality of how these bolts are installed and therefore keep as many people as possible in Alex's 'group 2' from his earlier post:

Agreed, I'm pretty surprised someone hasn't gone and unilaterally debolted Gogarth. It would be interesting to know how much that's because
1) people don't mind Gogarth being bolted in a limited way (i.e. to replace old pegs)
2) people are kidding themselves that these things aren't bolts
3) people just can't be bothered (fair enough - it's would be a right ballache!!)

I guess I would have predicted more strength of feeling (with a few exceptions who think it's bullshit!) and it's worth making sure that's not because of lots of people in camp 2

The benefit is to people who enjoy going out doing what they perceive as a version of climbing they know as 'trad' and don't want to have to think too hard about their romanticised game known as 'trad' being sullied by drilled gear - something that doesn't normally belong in their version of the trad game on Gogarth.
Keeping these bolts veiled in the nebulous language of being 'eco pegs' means people can go out climbing without cognitive dissonance of clipping bolts on Gogarth. Safe in the knowledge that what they're doing is clipping a peg and thus they can kid themselves that they're playing the romanticised game in keeping with the stories they've told themselves which don't involve drilling fixed gear on trad routes.

The important part to me is not kidding yourself or others. I couldn't give a monkey's about making up fairytales to make the experience fit in with some set of rules. 

That's it really, you're kidding yourselves if you think these aren't bolts. They're just bolts drilled into cracks.

[Nemo]

Have always fundamentally disagreed with JB about pegs.

Clearly if we're talking mountaineering territory, that's different.  But on all UK cliffs, if someone is placing fixed gear, it should be placed well and if that requires placing it from abseil, that's no issue.  Getting terribly excited because someone has sat on a skyhook and whacked in a peg, vs placing it on abseil is about as daft as getting excited about people trying to drill bolts on lead, which was always a complete nonsense even in Yosemite when they got excited about it there (ie: it's an aid climbing ethic that makes no sense in the free climbing world).  It just results in shit fixed gear usually in the wrong places that needs replacing shortly afterwards. 

"Instinctively I am happier with a pegbolt (or whatever the approved nomenclature is now) being placed in a drilled out old peg placement, or in a crack, than in clean rock." - SpiderMonkey

I'm not.
I feel precisely the opposite.
JB and various others get terribly excited about fixed gear going "where the rock allows".  Which is largely bollocks as you take a thin seam and bash a small peg in, and then a while later a bigger peg, and then a bigger peg, and then you end up with the utter mess on things like the Shield in Yosemite.

But the big problem to me is that it's irreversible.  ie: pegs go where the free climbing holds are and fundamentally change them.  Whereas bolts go into blank rock, and if at a later date the bolt comes out, the hole can easily be filled in and if done well noone need ever know it was there.  Once a peg has gone in, it's impossible to repair the damage to any potential free climbing holds.  Clearly on lots of routes this doesn't matter, but there's lots where it does too.  As I've said previously, it's no surprise that the hardest free climbing on El Cap is on a traverse, where aid climbers haven't happpened to go.  Pegs destroy or completely change potential free climbing holds.

"I have experimented with removal and it can be difficult to the point of impossible without significant damage to the rock." - JB

Yep.  One of the many reasons pegs are shite.

"hand-drilling on lead is typically held in high esteem as best acceptable style" - JB.

By who? You presumably?  Not by lots of other people.  And yes I know Beat Kammerlander's routes are cool and various Yosemite routes bolted in this way are considered cool. 
No problem with people doing this on big mountain routes where they've taken a hand drill along with them on an semi aid / free climbing adventure.
But that doesn't make the bolting done in this way any better.  It's far, far worse, as again, it just results in shit bolts in shit places that need replacing 2 mins later.
Watch that video of Ondra trying to ground up bolt stuff.  Mildly amusing maybe, but is that really sensible or good practice?
For anything in the UK, it's completely ridiculous. 


I'm entirely with Pete that these are bolts, not pegs and the debate should treat them as such and not pretend they're something else.
And I agree with Ali that pegs just need banning.  Pretty much everywhere.  Or at least anywhere with even half decent rock.  (The only exception on UK rock I can think of would be stuff that's so soft that bolts just don't actually work - ie: belays at back of Wen Zawn where there's no option other than metal stakes of some kind bashed into mud / very soft rock.) 

And yes that means that lots of old peg protected routes will get harder when the pegs come out.  And that's fine.  If people think it's not fine on a particular route, then if there's consensus, place a bolt. 
 
So just decide which areas and routes need fixed gear, and which don't, and where using fixed gear, use long lasting good quality bolts and stop pratting about with pegs.

The only area where I'm sure JB would agree (at least on the Gogarth bit) is on which areas make sense for fixed gear.
And Gogarth isn't one of them.  Not on Barbarossa, not on Main Cliff, not anywhere.  I'm pretty amazed that anyone thinks this is a good idea.
Just let the old pegs die or remove them.  Don't replace them with anything.  Those routes at Gogarth are amazing.  Wales is fantastic for both sport and trad currently, when you can have a day at LPT doing Statement one day and a day on Main Cliff the next.  And yes that means that a few routes like Barbarossa and The Bells and various others are going to get harder.  I fail to see the problem with that.

The only bit where I wouldn't have a problem with bolts at Gogarth (and various other places) are at abseils at the top of routes, where pretty much everyone abseils off (e.g the Strand).  That to me makes more sense than a load of tatt that needs replacing regularly, and I've never seen that as leading to bolts actually on routes.  People are sensible enough to be able to distinguish the two.  Whether they're needed or not to me at least just needs deciding by consensus on a case by case basis.

So much for the pro trad climbing rant.
For balance, (cue JB and others screaming at me) whilst I've always thought that we've largely got things right in terms of trad vs sport at a hard level in the UK (upwards of E5 ish).  I tend to think that the balance isn't anywhere near right at a lower standard.  I tend to view sport climbing and trad climbing both as equally acceptable passtimes, but with a shared resource.  On easier stuff I just see it as a historical quirk that trad climbing came along first and snapped up all the good quality rock.  Whereas it didn't get there first on the blanker harder stuff, so that got bolted.

Longer term I don't think that's sustainable.  It's pretty hard to justify pushing all the low grade sport climbers in the country into shitty loose quarries, when there's vast amounts of trad climbing on good quality rock that in certain places is getting overgrown as noone is climbing it.  Clearly this is different in different areas e.g on the South coast, none of this is true, as there's plenty of good quality low grade sport.  But in places like Yorkshire, I'm entirely in favour of some of the recent bolting in places like Twistleton, and would support it going further on some inland limestone. 

At the harder level, I think in some places it's gone too far, and as Tom suggested earlier, I'd personally strip the Cave Routes at Goredale, as they are or should be to me at least absolutely classic trad routes that people can aspire to.  As sport routes, meh.

In short, my two penneth is:
f**k pegs.
If you want fixed gear, stop pratting about placing pegs every 2 mins or pretending you're placing pegs when you're actually placing bolts.  And place long lasting good quality bolts in blank rock so as not to damage free climbing holds.
If you don't want bolts, then don't place fixed gear.
Don't place any fixed gear at Gogarth, other than perhaps at certain abseil points.
And whilst I think things are largely right in terms of the balance of trad / sport at a hard level in the UK, I think the line is a long way from fair at a lower level and I don't think that's sustainable.  The sooner that's realised and a more sensible line is drawn, the better, but admittedly that will obviously be a pretty big bunfight.

[andy moles]

That was a good post, though I'd point out that in light of the distinctions you make between Yosemite and UK rock, the argument against bigger and bigger pegs changing the rock is more relevant to the former. Obviously you've got historically aided cracks in quarries here, but the more common situation is that pegs are not replaced and rot.

For me the reason the 'where the rock allows' argument for fixed gear is flawed is that I don't see a self-evident bright line between a hammer and a drill (imagine for argument's sake we used hand drills rather than battery powered). Obviously yes, a drill removes more rock in a more uniform way, but in both cases you're using a tool to force a placement that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

On top of that, from a 'spirit of trad' perspective, the only person whose skill and judgement has been exercised in placing fixed gear is the person who placed it. For everyone else, you're just clipping it, and whether it's made use of a seam in the rock or it's in a blank bit makes little difference. The route has been altered.

Basically I'm in agreement that the source of this problem is pegs more than it is bolts.

[spidermonkey09]

Good post even if I don't agree with all of it. I do agree that a distinction between ground up and abseil pegging/bolting is nonsense and means nothing to me, it just ensures the job is done badly.

Interesting thoughts re lower grade sport, although thats a whole other thread really. Did you mean somewhere else when you said Twistleton? I wasn't aware of any bolting there.

[Nemo]

You're right, I meant Attermire rather than Twistleton.  And yeah, it's a completely different thread, just thought it was worth a bit of balance.

[Fiend]

I tend to think that the balance isn't anywhere near right at a lower standard.  I tend to view sport climbing and trad climbing both as equally acceptable passtimes, but with a shared resource.  On easier stuff I just see it as a historical quirk that trad climbing came along first and snapped up all the good quality rock.  Whereas it didn't get there first on the blanker harder stuff, so that got bolted.

Longer term I don't think that's sustainable.  It's pretty hard to justify pushing all the low grade sport climbers in the country into shitty loose quarries, when there's vast amounts of trad climbing on good quality rock that in certain places is getting overgrown as noone is climbing it. 

I fundamentally disagree with that. Historical quirks are fine, it's part of being in the UK with our diverse and wonderful melting pot of rock types, situations, and heritage.
I don't see why trad should be sacrificed at a lower standard compared to higher standards.
As always I'd encourage cleaning, lower-offs if needed, re-writing and publicising as the first thing to try for these neglected trad routes - and encouraging people to do more trad and be part of a sport / trad balance.

And.....it IS this thread, even though the focus has tended towards the pegbolts, it still falls under the general focus of The Calling Of The Bolt Chopping 

[scragrock]

I am intrigued to know why this Topic and other similar roped idiocy is being openly and brilliantly discussed on this forum and not on other perhaps more appropriately named platforms? {Not complaining}.

[abarro81]

Because you can sometimes/often have a sensible discussion on here whereas that's more rarely the case on something like UKC