[SA Chris]

There's been pushback against the bolting without consultation of Glenmarksie and some Torridonian sandstone crags

Forgot about Glutton. Did you think it offensive? I've not been.

 https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/glutton_crag-20419/

Didn't know about Glenmarksie, are the bolts still in place?

I heard there was a bit of a huff about the Kingussie bolted routes due to lack of consultation

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/comic_crag_-_kingussie-28406/#overview

[Fultonius]

I would call myself a pretty normal mainly onsight trad climber who also does sport and the odd headpoint. Seems from my logbook that I've done about 90% o/s, GU or fallen off...  Climbed plenty in the pass, some on Gogarth. Rhoscolyn etc.

I have not yet, to my knowledge, clipped a "pegbolt" (or eco-peg or whatever you want to call them) but I actually think they have a place and my thinking is more along the lines of petejh and Andy Moles .

For me, I would feel very "un-British" clipping an expansion bolt on a trad route. I do it all the time abroad (just back from a month of onsighting big granite stuff in Canada) and think there is some logic in the "creation" of more balanced routes.

Here are my observations and feelings, contradictory as they may be...

Scotland is littered with poorly protected low starred chop routes that nobody every climbs. There are routes around that are currently peg protected and in the usual "middle" of the grade curve, i.e. not *too* bold, not *too* over-protected. When the pegs go these routes will variously:


- become quite serious
- not change a lot
- just be more pure with no change in grade


My opinion is that we have enough chop routes, so those that become stupidly dangerous may benefit from a glued peg (but not a sport climbing "bolt"). The number of people out there that really want to climb seriously dangerous mid-grade routes in vanishing low, and there are so many quality, bold naturally protected routes that I don't think it's a net gain to add more chop routes in the mix.

The reason I have a preference for these controversial middle-ground is purely that they keep the feeling more "trad" and preserve the original feeling of the route.


now....

When it comes to the "decision tree" of "what should be done when a route has crumbling pegs", to me, is based on:

- What percentage of the pro is pegs
- does the route naturally "top out"
- how serious does the route become without

Some of these main wall routes that used to have 15+ pegs and now have 11 "peg bolts" are sport routes in all but name and I think they should either have been retroed properly with a L/O, or, if the crag is a historical classic trad crag it maybe jut needs to be consigned to the history bucket...


In my experience: majority trad crags with a few sport routes have more trad traffic and the drive for retro-bolting is minimal  (e.g cambusbarron) crags with an even balance where the sport routes are good are very neglected from a trad perspective: (tunnel wall, upper cave*, dumbarton) but the biggest risk of creeping retro where you have a majority sport crag with one or two "historical" trad routes. They seem to get totally neglected and are perhaps more at risk?

*while on any given day the sport routes are more likely to be climbed, it *IS* still a popular trad crag with quite a few underprotected test-pieces such as Lady Charlotte than would maybe have seen the sharp end of a drill in more modern times.

So, in summary, I guess I support "glued pegs" in a limited and specific way  but agree that tring to pretend they are not "bolts" is nonsense and having 12 in a row is a bloody sport route!


Additions:

- I do not support placing new pegs on FAs, or bolts.

Final thought for now.... It's kind of funny that we have an idea of "British Trad Ethics", when viewpoints on everything else in life vary wildly region to region. It's not like by buying a rope and rack you instantly sign up to some agreement charter on how to behave...what you can and can't do... 

[Alex-the-Alex]

There have been a few bolting controversies in recent years in Scotland (though Scotland is a big place, so they've been less concentrated).

Craiglea is the naughtiest I've seen. Fiend would be weeping and gnashing his teeth. Beautiful gneiss littered with cracks, grid bolted for convenience. The one E1 left standing has an extra bolt added at the start to tame the 2m runout to the first cam crack. A very enjoyable afternoon out, but a bad precedent, I felt.

The bendy wall at Glencoe has some interesting comments on UKC too.

And the diabaig commodification is the nw equivalent of rhoscolyn. Theres just fewer folks around with chisels to clean it up.

I'd be sad to see bolts in Scottish mountain or seacliff routes. And a glued peg, in my view, is a bolt. I can't think of many routes that would be lost, but maybe I don't climb at a high enough level/right areas

[petejh]

In reply to Fultonius. I realise you probably know this but. The reality of 'glued pegs' is:

1. They aren't just glued - they nearly always need to be drilled, then glued.
This is because a typical peg crack is too tight to accept thick glue, you need to make enough of a hole so that the shaft of the peg is surrounded by the glue. So while a 'glued peg' might sound and look like a sort of more acceptable trad version of a bolt, the reality of its placement is the same as a bolt on a sport route. In other words a glued peg is a non stainless protection bolt. Why would you place a non-stainless protection bolt?
2. Because they need to be drilled, glued pegs don't only get placed in natural peg placements - as some people incorrectly claim. The options for placement are far more flexible when you have to use the drill to place them. As long as you drill into a vaguely seam-like or pocket-like feature it can be claimed 'it was a peg placement' and the climbing scene will generally let it pass without too much self-reflection, because we all just appreciate having the bomber gear to clip. If you take a close look at the many glued disguised bolts in Wales you'll notice many of them aren't in natural peg cracks rather they've been drilled and glued into bits of rock with a crack, seam or recessed feature that wouldn't necessarily accept a bomber hammered-in peg.


Glued-pegs are a cuddly sympathetic-looking sub-standard short-lifespan version of a stainless bolt. Introduced as a way to place bolt protection on run-out trad routes in a way that doesn't outrage British trad sensibilities. As a lover of simplicity I find this self-deception deeply annoying.

The N.Wales 'bolts that look like pegs' are one step better, because they're stainless. But still founded in a deception that makes climbers believe they're a peg.

The logical solution imo is a bolt that looks and works like a bolt.

[SA Chris]

Craiglea is the naughtiest I've seen.

Where is this?

Did Gallanash have many trad routes before bolting?

[andy moles]

Forgot about Glutton. Did you think it offensive? I've not been.

 https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/glutton_crag-20419/

Didn't know about Glenmarksie, are the bolts still in place?

I heard there was a bit of a huff about the Kingussie bolted routes due to lack of consultation

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/comic_crag_-_kingussie-28406/#overview

Re. Glenmarksie, I believe so.

Glutton is not the only sandstone crag, but I've not been myself.

I'm surprised there was any fuss about Kingussie. It wasn't trad developed (despite being right by the town), the rock is compact, it seems like an uncontroversial candidate for low grade sport. My only complaint would be that some of the bolting is pretty random!

I knew nothing about Craiglea, but from the few photos on UKC I'd have to agree that that really doesn't look like a sport crag.

[Fultonius]

In reply to Fultonius. I realise you probably know this but. The reality of 'glued pegs' is:

1. They aren't just glued - they nearly always need to be drilled, then glued.
This is because a typical peg crack is too tight to accept thick glue, you need to make enough of a hole so that the shaft of the peg is surrounded by the glue. So while a 'glued peg' might sound and look like a sort of more acceptable trad version of a bolt, the reality of its placement is the same as a bolt on a sport route. In other words a glued peg is a non stainless protection bolt. Why would you place a non-stainless protection bolt?
2. Because they need to be drilled, glued pegs don't only get placed in natural peg placements - as some people incorrectly claim. The options for placement are far more flexible when you have to use the drill to place them. As long as you drill into a vaguely seam-like or pocket-like feature it can be claimed 'it was a peg placement' and the climbing scene will generally let it pass without too much self-reflection, because we all just appreciate having the bomber gear to clip. If you take a close look at the many glued disguised bolts in Wales you'll notice many of them aren't in natural peg cracks rather they've been drilled and glued into bits of rock with a crack, seam or recessed feature that wouldn't necessarily accept a bomber hammered-in peg.


Glued-pegs are a cuddly sympathetic-looking sub-standard short-lifespan version of a stainless bolt. Introduced as a way to place bolt protection on run-out trad routes in a way that doesn't outrage British trad sensibilities. As a lover of simplicity I find this self-deception deeply annoying.

The N.Wales 'bolts that look like pegs' are one step better, because they're stainless. But still founded in a deception that makes climbers believe they're a peg.

The logical solution imo is a bolt that looks and works like a bolt.

Thanks for the lengthy description Pete, reads about the same as the last one you wrote on another thread

To clarify - I'd only advocate for stainless for longevity (or titanium for that matter).

Whether they're shaped to look like a peg, or a standard glue-in is less of an issue for me - I just mentioned I didn't mind the self delusion, as for me it just seems more in keeping stylistically and draws a stronger divide between sport and trad. Standards bolts = sport
glued, drilled, stainless oeg:bolts are permanent fixed gear on trad.

It's only a theory/suggestion.

I 100% agree anyone pretending they're not essentially identical to "bolts" is seriously deluding themselves, but I do still think them being "visually" different may have some merit?

[andy moles]

a deception that makes climbers believe they're a peg.

You not think that before long everyone will recognise the difference? Word is very much out, and they look pretty different to standard pegs.

[Ru]

In reply to Fultonius. I realise you probably know this but. The reality of 'glued pegs' is:

1. They aren't just glued - they nearly always need to be drilled, then glued.
This is because a typical peg crack is too tight to accept thick glue, you need to make enough of a hole so that the shaft of the peg is surrounded by the glue.

Pete, do you know what product is being used for these glue-in pegs? I can't find anything similar to the picture you posted on a (very quick) google.

[Johnny Brown]

AFAIK they’ve been custom made. Laser cut from a sheet, I think cavers did it first.

[petejh]

Pete, do you know what product is being used for these glue-in pegs? I can't find anything similar to the picture you posted on a (very quick) google.

As JB says he's had them custom made by a tame fabricator out of 316 stainless. I was there when he had them pull-tested, they tested to over 30kN axial if I recall correctly. Might be wrong on that as we were also testing the 12mm twisty bolt at the time.

[petejh]

You not think that before long everyone will recognise the difference? Word is very much out, and they look pretty different to standard pegs.

Maybe. However the BMC N.Wales local area, the Moelwyns guidebook, and the ubiquitous UKC descriptions all describing insitu 'pegs' (or 'eco pegs') makes me think the self-deception will persist.

[Fiend]

On drilled and glued bolts:

For me, I would feel very "un-British" clipping an expansion bolt on a trad route.

I found it very useful to gain perspective on the issue by visualising these drilled and glued pegs as if they were expansion bolts placed in exactly the same situation. Because that is what they are functionally and ethically equivalent to, and how any ethical judgements should apply (although normal drilled and glued ringbolts are a better equivalence in terms of practicality).


On retro-bolting trad and, say, Yorkshire and Peak lime in particular: I do agree with points made by AliK I think, that routes that are predominantly reliant on (old) fixed gear, especially in areas that are more lenient towards sport climbing, can be considerably more acceptable candidates for retro-bolting than routes that are predominantly reliant on normal leader-placed gear (like, say, old Lorry Park Quarry trad, a lot of retroed Ormes easy extremes etc).

[Fiend]

The logical solution seems to be a mixture of removing the large majority of pegs and not replacing where it makes sense not to, while some edge cases retain minimal bomber fixed gear where the quality at a particular grade seems to justify it. In those cases it makes sense to bend ethical guidelines so pegs can get replaced with long-lasting stainless or titanium bolts. There'll always be grey areas and not everyone will be in total agreement. But then I'm probably naïve and believe people can be sensible and balanced and make good judgement calls.

This is what’s been attempted in N.Wales. The bolting is getting deserved flack because it started from a dodgy premise that isn’t transparent to other climbers outside a relatively tiny circle of knowledge. Pretending the peg replacements aren’t bolts takes people for fools and denies people a chance to have an informed opinion on the matter. There's also been some over-doing it on routes that a lot of people think don't benefit from the bolts.

There's a lot of sense to that. I and others might not entirely agree with bolt-for-peg replacement, but then the last paragraph highlights the need for clarity so at least people can have informed debate about it.

[Alex-the-Alex]

Craiglea is the naughtiest I've seen.

Where is this?

Did Gallanash have many trad routes before bolting?

Above the nudist resort on the way to Arisaig.

 I think Gallanach was always a good candidate for bolting. There was one noted trad route prior (an amazing chimney system which I still haven't done, much to my shame). The initial sport and trad routes were all done around the same time. The sport routes are popular, the trad routes gather dust. Which is a bit of shame. Cotyledon would be up there with the best overgrown, loose, mega corners in the country. And the Braid is excellent (but I would say that  ).

[andy moles]

You not think that before long everyone will recognise the difference? Word is very much out, and they look pretty different to standard pegs.

Maybe. However the BMC N.Wales local area, the Moelwyns guidebook, and the ubiquitous UKC descriptions all describing insitu 'pegs' (or 'eco pegs') makes me think the self-deception will persist.

Yeah, which is not good. I moderate a few things like Craig y Forwyn on UKC, I'll look to update those at least.

Definitely important that guidebooks make clear what they are. Do you know how Andy Boorman plans to describe them in the new NWL?

I can imagine simply calling them a bolt might cause confusion for someone who hasn't seen them before, which I guess supports your point. 'Pegbolt' seems to have naturally gained usage (and it's not too inaccurate, as they are bolts designed to look more like pegs). I'll describe them as that for now.

[SA Chris]

Above the nudist resort on the way to Arisaig.

I did find it. Shocking.... I didn't know there was a nudist resort in the highlands!

[peterherd]

Fultonious "For me, I would feel very "un-British" clipping an expansion bolt on a trad route." Don't worry about that, these are glue in bolts, albeit of a different shape and less consistent in placement that we're used to (I know of at least 1 that's pulled out).  I do think it's important we refer to them as such.

'Crucial' pegs in naturally occuring seams do get replaced on popular routes (ie Esgair Maen Gwyn, Shelterstone Central Slabs). Seems to work pretty well and at least the feature for the piece is already there. However pegs are placed much less often if not at all in new routes now with people just stepping up to the challenge of leader placed pro if they want it or enjoying/practicing the route on a TR instead. Lots of examples of this all over Britain. Seems a pretty consistently adopted ethic and this issue in Wales appears to me to be an outlying case. What 'chop' routes with crucial pegs are people pining to do so much anyway? As far as I can see these pegs aren't even these kinds of routes but maybe we should bolt North Stack Wall or Dalriada though, take them down a peg or two (sorry couldn't resist)?

There have been a few comments about the difficulty of assessing pegs which I think play down the skills techniques of the competent trad leader. We can definitely assess rock quality, get an idea of the shape of the feature, the depth of placement, the sound of the peg, the kind of peg, the condition of the metal, all contributing to a typical onsight asssessment. Ultimately we can also choose to climb within our limits and not fall on to it or if the climbing is too hard for the level of exposure, pre practice the climb. We can back them up with other pro or potentially remove them all together.

I'd also draw attention to a point Petes brought up in this thread already and I think I alluded to in a previous thread  - consider the grade spectrum of routes these bolts have been placed in. Average grade in my guess it E4 with little or none below E3 or above E6. Who are the bolts for? 

I very much agree with Petes point - I'm for not drilling holes.

[SA Chris]

However pegs are placed much less often if not at all in new routes now with people just stepping up to the challenge of leader placed pro

I was thinking this, if you flick through the SMC new routes lists produced yearly, I've never noticed mention of pegs being placed (apart from winter routes).

[northern yob]

I'd also draw attention to a point Petes brought up in this thread already and I think I alluded to in a previous thread  - consider the grade spectrum of routes these bolts have been placed in. Average grade in my guess it E4 with little or none below E3 or above E6. Who are the bolts for? 

This is a very pertinent question…. Whilst I’m getting quite old, I’d say a lot of people defending these bolts are older gentlemen, coincidence or not…..? Ethical arguments are being used to justify the bolts, but those  arguments don’t stand up for a vast majority of the routes they are in.

Barbarossa came up a lot in previous threads and despite my views I can see the other side of the argument, at least there’s an argument to have… a lot of the other bolts I just don’t see it.

[ali k]

to 'preserve' this at E1 when it's only E3 without seems madness to me. And the same principle should apply at whatever grade.

That does indeed sound elitist. You could equally say "to preserve this at E7 when it's only E9 without seems like madness to me...".

To avoid being accused of elitism then - by this argument you could equally end up 'preserving' a route at V Diff instead of Severe by adding a bolt where a 'crucial' peg once was. I think most on here would sniff at that, but the V Diff leader would be well within their rights.

[andy_e]

Forgot about Glutton. Did you think it offensive? I've not been.

 https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/glutton_crag-20419/

Didn't know about Glenmarksie, are the bolts still in place?

I heard there was a bit of a huff about the Kingussie bolted routes due to lack of consultation

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/comic_crag_-_kingussie-28406/#overview

Re. Glenmarksie, I believe so.

Glutton is not the only sandstone crag, but I've not been myself.

Yes the bolts are still there at Glenmarksie and I've been told by people who sport climb that it's now a good little sport crag.

Glutton is weird, I did a few routes that would be excellent, airy, but safe HVSs that were tame, relatively unmemorable sport routes. The argument is that "nobody would trad climb there because Ardmair is close by", which is odd, because a similar argument is "nobody would climb at Torridon village boulders because the Celtic Jumble is right there". Well, both crags could have fantastic routes that are worth people doing, their proximity to a bigger, "better" crag is irrelevant. I've not been to Fideil Crag yet, but it sounds like a similar deal here.

[SA Chris]

From what I know, justification for the bolting was there was a lack of sport climbs for their kids to do in the area.

Not heard of Fideal before, pretty sure this would not be tolerated in most parts of the UK. Guess in an area with such a glut of amazing trad it gets tolerated?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/fideal_crag-29834/#photos&gid=1&pid=5

edit - link is supposed to be to topo for "grit buttress"

[petejh]

I very much agree with Petes point - I'm for not drilling holes.

I thought my argument was clear but I'll clarify. My argument is not against placing bolts (which obvs involves drilling holes). I can see the merit for some of the bolt placements on a case by case view.

My argument is for openness and transparency that glue-in bolts are being placed. The current situation is not open or transparent.

Glue-in bolts are being placed and this is being whitewashed by local climbers in positions of influence. The BMC's local area fixed-gear policy calls them 'eco-pegs', the most recent guidebook to an area with extensive bolting calls them 'pegs'. A clear example of bullshit, legitimised. spade==spade.

My personal choice would be for a more recognisable glue-in bolt, sold on the open market, that you don't need to get custom made by a local fabricator to look a bit like a peg in order to deceive climbers giving it a casual glance.

I've yet to ask Andy what he intends to call the bolts on Craig y Forwyn and Pen Trwyn in the next edition of NW Limestone. I won't be surprised if the answer is 'eco pegs' or some variant as Andy (not meant as a slight) is part of the BMC scene who are labelling these bolts 'eco pegs'.

[mrjonathanr]

I'm 100% with you on this. I do not buy the argument that eventually everyone will work out what they are. If a bolt looking like what it is makes climbers feel uncomfortable, maybe they should interrogate why. It can't really be the aesthetics of it: there's a lump of metal sticking out of the rock that otherwise would not be there. Whether it's got a rounded or angular hanger is trivial.

I went to Forwyn for the first time over the summer (what a crag!) and was pretty shocked to realise how many bolts there were on the crag. Is there one in Quickstep? I clipped something like one- but the natural pro is good. Manhattan Highrise and Katie's delight are potentially bold wall climbs that are bolted further right; if they are going to be sporty sport climbs, fair enough, but I don't like the disguising of the fact tbh.