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Training top-ups while projecting (Read 2377 times)

Fultonius

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Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 12:40:58 pm
Probably an obvious one, but I'm in the redpoint stage of a proj at Dumby, Endurance.  Last Friday I had some attempts and felt I'd lost a bit of PE since before Canada (unsurprising) but sessions on Tuesday and yesterday were promising.

On Tuesday I managed to re-do all the moves and short links, and had one decent RP, coming up short matching the crux vert rail before the two last moves of where it joins Sufferance.

Yesterday I got 4 good RPs, 2 failing as per the video that will come along soon, and two slightly lower with an annoying foot-rope interaction / fumble. (the rest of the route is not trivial, but there's only one hard move as per Sufferance and it didn't cause me any RP difficulties 10 years ago when I did that...)

I mean, the obvious one is "representative PE type mimic of the route..."  but at this stage, is it better to do something shorter and harder than the route, or longer and easier but do more laps of it?

I'm guessing the former, as my 4th go was still pretty "strong" so session endurance isn't a limiting factor.

It's pissing down and the forecast doesn't look good for the next week, so I guess I'll be resting up and back indoors - what's everyone's favourite tactic for keeping in condition / working on some aspects that might tip the balance towards success?

Liamhutch89

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#1 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 12:54:41 pm
I just had the same dilemma, albeit on a power endurance boulder, not a route.

I'd had some good redpoint attempts over the last couple of weeks, but was failing near the end due to power fade. Since i'm in a peak phase and haven't done any specific power endurance work for almost 6 weeks, I was concerned that my power endurance was going down. Luckily I have a coach and was advised not to add any power endurance sessions and instead focus on reducing fatigue and peaking for redpoint attempts. I concentrated on high intensity low volume, nailed my sleep, diet, skin, etc and got it done yesterday. YMMV.

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#2 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 01:00:43 pm
You could try climbing a replica of the hardest moves with a small amount of added weight to develop more power for the hardest sections.

Fultonius

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#3 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 01:12:49 pm


Man I need to sort the steadily spreading bald patch!  The GF says she doesn't want me to buzz it off, but I hate it every time I see myself from the back. Must make a decision before my 40th in April... 

First...get the route sent!

Fultonius

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#4 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 01:16:49 pm
I just had the same dilemma, albeit on a power endurance boulder, not a route.

I'd had some good redpoint attempts over the last couple of weeks, but was failing near the end due to power fade. Since i'm in a peak phase and haven't done any specific power endurance work for almost 6 weeks, I was concerned that my power endurance was going down. Luckily I have a coach and was advised not to add any power endurance sessions and instead focus on reducing fatigue and peaking for redpoint attempts. I concentrated on high intensity low volume, nailed my sleep, diet, skin, etc and got it done yesterday. YMMV.

Good work -  :2thumbsup:

Sounds like a sensible approach, I'll see if I can emulate.

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#5 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 01:58:27 pm
I just had the same dilemma, albeit on a power endurance boulder, not a route.

I'd had some good redpoint attempts over the last couple of weeks, but was failing near the end due to power fade. Since i'm in a peak phase and haven't done any specific power endurance work for almost 6 weeks, I was concerned that my power endurance was going down. Luckily I have a coach and was advised not to add any power endurance sessions and instead focus on reducing fatigue and peaking for redpoint attempts. I concentrated on high intensity low volume, nailed my sleep, diet, skin, etc and got it done yesterday. YMMV.

Have recently had exactly this advice.

Looks like a cool route. I'd say as well if you've had 4 good redpoints getting high on it like that you just need to keep turning up (well rested etc. as above).

SA Chris

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#6 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 02:02:45 pm
Clipping hair might be the marginal gain you need! Looking strong on it though. Is that Mr Small belaying? Surely his power should be radiating out to you!

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#7 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 03:19:22 pm
If I understand you right, you reckon if you do a few more moves you're in? Sounds like you're close to me and just need to keep turning up. If I had a few indoor sessions before next getting on a power endurance project in a weeks time I would probably do a session of Anderson hangs/ whatever repeaters you might normally do and a wall session doing board problems at about 80% of max, but quit before I got tired. If I personally did nothing for a week before getting on something power endurancey I would feel crap but you might be different.

If it wasn't raining I would just say keep turning up and don't bother training at all but since you'll likely be slightly delayed by the weather might as well do something applicable without knackering yourself. Give yourself 2 or 3 rest days between the second indoor session and the next RP session.

All the above caveated with the proviso that I've never done any training phases; my training is mostly vibes based!

Fultonius

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#8 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 03:26:54 pm
If I understand you right, you reckon if you do a few more moves you're in? Sounds like you're close to me and just need to keep turning up. If I had a few indoor sessions before next getting on a power endurance project in a weeks time I would probably do a session of Anderson hangs/ whatever repeaters you might normally do and a wall session doing board problems at about 80% of max, but quit before I got tired. If I personally did nothing for a week before getting on something power endurancey I would feel crap but you might be different.

If it wasn't raining I would just say keep turning up and don't bother training at all but since you'll likely be slightly delayed by the weather might as well do something applicable without knackering yourself. Give yourself 2 or 3 rest days between the second indoor session and the next RP session.

All the above caveated with the proviso that I've never done any training phases; my training is mostly vibes based!

Aye, that's exactly where I'm at. I felt better on Thursday than Tuesday despite Smally finding the conditions worse - I think I'm like you - suffer more from excessive rest than too little, but I'll definitely keep any sessions short and focussed and try to get at least 48 hours off before RPing. Hopefully get a break in the weather next week - at least this route doesn't seep unlike the start of Sufferance.

I just noticed watching the vid again that my hips are trailing my movement on the last move, so that might help if I can roll them across a bit to initiate the movement (it was once commented by a coach type person that I don't lead with my hips enough).

SA Chris

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#9 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 03:31:32 pm
Shakira said it.

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#10 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 03:41:31 pm
I donít know the route/conditions but a couple of observations:

It takes you 50 seconds to climb 10 feet. Liquid chalk and miss out the first lot of strenuous chalking up?

It looks very strenuous clipping the 3rd bolt above your head. The second is by your bollocks. Can you make the moves to the next holds and clip on straight arms?

Doesnít look like you need to train, just speed up.

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#11 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 03:59:32 pm
I agree with Tom, that knee bar looks a bit unnecessary

Fultonius

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#12 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 04:02:30 pm
Thanks T_B, interesting - I'll ponder on that a bit.

I've never got on that well with liquid chalk, and it was a bit windless yesterday so maybe over-chalking. With regards to speed, I'll maybe have a go going quicker next time, but it's maybe not as bad as it looks:

By bolt 2 (first 2 pre-clipped as the bottom one is rusty and the early climbing is easy so clipping #2 makes little difference), I'm in a good kneebar and not using much effort to hang in there. As soon as I rock up left for the crimp, I'm in 100% precision mode - I could literally fall off almost every move from there to the top, so I definitely have the risk of mistakes if I rush.

The last chalk up can/should be eliminated - liquid chalk and/or colder conditions should help.

When you say the third bolt, do you mean the 4th? The 3rd doesn't *feel* too strenuous to clip, and I used to clip it after making the move to the slopey rail where I road-runner my feet up - I had considered just making the next move (easy enough) and clipping the 4th. I will also ponder that...

I certainly wouldn't want to skip the 4th, as it's quite a runout to the next one - that said, it's how it was done on the FA before the 4th bolt go added recently....  (but they leant back down left and clipped the bolt behind me when I fall off, from the jug above, rather than going all the way to the next bolt. )
 
Edited as I just re-read it. The next holds are terrible, so while the body position is a bit strenuous, it still feels like the lowest energy cost clipping position for me, as it had a sharp/incut hold for the RH that I can use skin and bone instead of muscle to hold me in, that said, it's not really fingers/forearms that are failing me, it's more core/body/shoulder.

Lots to ponder, thanks.

@Teaboy - I probably could eliminate the knee bar, but it does feel pretty chill there. Smally spends about 1 minute there! It's more a pause and prep, get psyched thing.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 04:07:51 pm by Fultonius »

T_B

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#13 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 04:14:57 pm
Yeah hard to tell not having been on the route but I meant the third. You also chalk semi locked off after clipping. But appreciate the holds above are worse.

Despite not being that steep it looks quite physical with that massive high step by the 4th, so your core is having to do a lot? Looks core strenuous that initial knee bar from the comfort of my armchair.

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#14 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 04:28:35 pm
Yeah, it's basically an act of pushing and pressing in all the correct directions to keep your feet on tiny footholds and hands on things that slope all the wrong way (sounds shit, but it's really good when it all comes together).

I've just compared Ry's effort on Tuesday (he got it later that day) - video below. From leaving the knee bar until he fell off, which was roughly 2 moves before fell off he took 54 seconds, for me to do the same section I was 49 seconds so I don't think I'm super slow.

This was kind of a warm-up go for him and I didn't get a chance to film any more, hope he doesn't mind me posting:
  NB: Ry is about 9ft tall, so his beta doesn't work for me. Smally does it totally differently too - must grab a vid of him next time.

WRT clipping the 3rd, as I said I had wondered about just skipping it. I used to go up to the rail and clip there, but you have to hang around in this awkward position: 
which has worse feet, but I could just do the next 2 easyish moves and clip the 4th....   Might be on to something there.

And the kneebar...yes, core, yes, it's a core failure...again...might be on to something!
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 04:37:11 pm by Fultonius »

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#15 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 04:37:25 pm
Climb faster.


Fultonius

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#16 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 04:40:27 pm
It's steeper than it looks from those front-on videos:



Actually, that one's maybe a bit misleading - it's steeper than it looks from front on, but that seems to exagerate it somehow. This one for balance:



Thanks fiend, inciteful   ::)
« Last Edit: September 30, 2022, 04:48:50 pm by Fultonius »

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#17 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 05:03:43 pm
That's a suitable spelling of insightful, hah!!



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#18 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 05:30:54 pm

When you say the third bolt, do you mean the 4th? The 3rd doesn't *feel* too strenuous to clip, and I used to clip it after making the move to the slopey rail where I road-runner my feet up - I had considered just making the next move (easy enough) and clipping the 4th. I will also ponder that...


If you extended the third could you clip it off the big flake then have your kneebar rest. Then you can just blast on through to the fourth and with the lower krab there you'll have more rope available to haul and won't have to do a double pull which will also save you time.

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#19 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
September 30, 2022, 06:02:28 pm
Also a good suggestion. Iain clips a long extended one, but then clips the short one too  :lol:  He's got too much clinging on ability...

I reckon I'm just going to go and try to smash it in pretty much as I have been doing, just with less chalking up. If that still fails I'll start trying the other ideas. If I start the session trying the other ideas it's probably going to write that session off just figuring it all out.

That's a suitable spelling of insightful, hah!!

The question is - was it deliberate?   :-\




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#20 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
October 01, 2022, 10:27:42 am
If I can get out and give meaningful goes once a week on a project, I tend to not do any supplementary strength endurance training. All my other climbing is either strength or endurance, as needed.

If there is a week when I cannot get to the project I do one or two sessions of specific strength endurance.


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#21 Re: Training top-ups while projecting
October 01, 2022, 10:55:25 am
Man I need to sort the steadily spreading bald patch!  ÖI hate it every time I see myself from the back.

It's steeper than it looks from those front-on videos

I canít help with the training but everythingís pointing towards filming it from the side in future  ;) .

it's basically an act of pushing and pressing in all the correct directions to keep your feet on tiny footholds and hands on things that slope all the wrong way (sounds shit, but it's really good when it all comes together).

Doesnít sound shit to me, sounds like good technical climbing.

 

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