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Natural remedies and drugs for tendon injuries (Read 14451 times)

r-man

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Natural remedies and drugs for tendon injuries
November 19, 2004, 12:02:11 am
Does anyone know what kind of dietary supplements would be helpful in healing tendon damage?

Been doing a bit of googling. Thus far glucosamine has been mentioned. though I'm not sure if this is just to reduce inflammation.

Also Vitamin A (Beta Carotene) is apparently
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essential for the growth and repair of bone and joint tissues


Hmm, here's something about healing tendons that's quite interesting (if a bit long-winded)

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Experience suggests that resolution of tendinitis can be surprisingly time-consuming. The reasons can be found in the pathophysiology of tendon repair. Following flexor tendon laceration, tendon healing follows three phases. Initially, inflammation is observed, This stimulates migration and proliferation of fibroblasts and the removal of damaged tissue. The inflammatory phase ends long before tissue remodeling has been completed. Within the first week, collagen synthesis is initiated, though fiber orientation may be chaotic. By the fourth week, fibroblasts predominate and collagen content increases. Maturation of collagen and functional alignment occurs by the second month, with maximum functional restoration requiring exposure of the healing tendon to renewed loading. Exercise and movement are fundamental to the therapeutic process of an injured tendon. But premature exercise can be detrimental; movement of a deformed, devascularized, or inflamed tendon will provoke further injury and breakdown. Mechanical loading that results in a stiffer tendon development can provide structural integrity but a loss of mobility. Pain is an important indicator of either gross or microscopic abnormal tissue responses. In considering MSDs involving tendon and ligament it is especially important to differentiate between aggravation of an injury and exercise, which can be therapeutic. Exercise has proven to be an important component in the remodeling and strengthening of the ligaments of the rat knee. However, tendon and ligament adaptation and repair are inevitably slow processes -- a knee injury can take up to 2 years to fully repair. Thus, although tendon, in particular, can effect a considerable but slow adaptational response to increased physical demand, a progressive increase in loading demands can easily exceed remodeling capacity, increasing the likelihood of re-injury. The slow natural rate of tendon and ligament repair also highlights the importance of prevention and early intervention. Established injuries can persist for weeks and months even after ergonomic review of the workplace and remediation.


lots more long words at this site
http://www.ergonext.com/aa-science-msd/tendons-ligaments.htm

Though this is more concise:
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In cases where the tendon is inflamed (tendinitis), conservative treatment is usually only needed for three to four weeks. When symptoms are from tendinosis(tissue degeneration due to overuse), you can expect healing to take longer, usually up to three months. If the tendinosis is chronic and severe, complete healing can take up to six months.


More words and Pictures here:
http://www.handuniversity.com/topics.asp?Topic_ID=4

All seems a bit grim.So anyone know anything about magic healing potions? ;)

Tim Heaton

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While not a dietary supplement, I have had acupuncture on tendon injuries and would very much recommend it to anyone.

r-man

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Acupuncture on tendon injuries eh? What's the deal with that then...how much did it cost, how many sessions did you need, and how effective was it?

I'd also be intrigued by the theory behind what exactly acupuncture does in relation to tendon injuries, even if it's in terms of energies and flow and suchlike...

Tim Heaton

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Well, I injured my finger around last Christmas time and stupidly continued climbing, "just a little bit", on it for a couple of months. Eventually I got to the point where it just hurt so much whenever I crimped that I realised that I really should have a total break.
After about 5 weeks it was better but still hurting quite a lot, they take so long to heal naturally, that I thought I should try and find some kind of active healing. Initially I thought about seeing a physio but they are so expensive, and I work with a part time acupuncturist, I decided on trying some alternative stuff. I must admit that at the start I was somewhat dubious, did it as much for the experience as hope that it would heal my finger, but I had 2 sessions with her and the difference was amazing. I was climbing again without any pain within 2 weeks and have been totally injury free since: about 6 months.
I am not sure whether there is much uniformity in price, depends upon where you live, but I would think it should be about £40 for initial consultation and then £20 for follow up treatments.  I am still uneasy about all the energy/flow explanation, having been brought up with Westernized medicine all my life I find it very difficult to accept, but
if you are interested I can ask Sam properly next time I see her on Wednesday.

r-man

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Wow, two weeks and all better!

Sounds like one o'them miracle cure thingies... I'm pretty tempted to give it a go. :wink:

Only thing is, you say you had 5 weeks off and it still hurt, then you had acupuncture and it was better in two weeks... So you had 7 weeks off in total - is there a chance that it would have got better on its own in that time, or was it not improving at all?

And I am genuinely interested in the theory behind it, so if you don't mind finding out, I'd like to know...

Cheers

Tim Heaton

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No it is definitely not a miracle cure, I think that unfortunately the only way for fingers to heal is to take time off: in hindsight it would have been much better to stop for a week at the first sign of a twinge than to push through and be forced into a much longer layoff.

It was much better after 5 weeks rest than it had been before, but there was definitely still a fair amount of pain when climbing. I am not sure whether this meant the finger was still injured or just the build up of scar tissue that had occured during healing was rubbing. After having the acupuncture it did still ache a fair bit (especially the day after climbing) but I found that the speed of the recovery process was much improved.

There is no sustitute to allowing the injury to heal with time, then taking it very easy when coming back to climbing after the break and building up slowly; but, if nothing else seems to be working then I would thoroughly recommend trying out acupuncture, £40'ish is not a lot when it comes to being able to enjoy days out climbing without pain.

r-man

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in hindsight it would have been much better to stop for a week at the first sign of a twinge than to push through and be forced into a much longer layoff.


Tell me about it! :cry:

Well, you've convinced me it's worth a go. I think I'll definitely investigate acupuncturists (is that the word?) in my area. Still be interested in the theory behind it, if it's not too much bother to ask your mate...

Tim Heaton

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No trouble at all, I will do, but undoubtedly she'll come out with some mumbo jumbo about energy that I won't understand :wink:

The first thing she did to me when I went for my consultation and explained that my finger hurt was to ask me to stick out my tongue, what's that about????  :lol:

If you do try it, post back with whether you felt it helped or not, it would be interesting to see if you agree with me.

Tim Heaton

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I asked my friend and this is her response, I hope it makes sense and is some help,


"Hi Tim's friend

Acupuncture works by increasing the flow of blood and energy to a specific
area, thus speeding up the healing process (more blood = more nutrients =
better healing).

In Chinese Medicine, there is usually a reason as to why an injury appears
in a certain area - in the instance of climber's finger, this could be
overuse of a muscle not previously designed to support full body weight, or
that the energy channels running through that area/finger were slightly
weaker anyway (this varies from person to person) and therefore unable to
take the extra strain. This is why some people do get finger injuries and
others don't, despite perhaps climbing to the same level of difficulty and
having the same capability.

If scar tissue has formed and is slow to disappear, again increasing the
flow of blood/energy to the area will facilitate and speed up healing. An
acupuncturist would then aim to strengthen the channels running through the
finger to help prevent similar injuries in the future.

To find a fully qualified & certified acupuncturist in your area, I would
recommend that you visit the British Acupuncture Council's website at
http://www.acupuncture.org.uk/ as they are the regulating body for UK
acupuncturists and all members will be trained to a high level. If you can't
find someone on-line, you can phone them for a list.

Hope this helps! Let me know if you want any more advice.

Good luck, and I hope your finger gets better.

Sam"

r-man

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Thanks Tim, that's interesting. It seems like energy might just be another word for blood flow, or at least means something similiar. It's not my finger though, it's my elbow, but I'm sure the same general principle would apply. Say thanks to Sam for me as well.


...Might check them out, though I'm going to give it another week or two - anything to avoid actually spending money!  :wink:

cofe

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Quote from: "r-man"
It's not my finger though, it's my elbow,


ditto but with a bit of finger thrown in for good measure. i'v been following this with interest. if any of y'all find anymore out then please post. word.

underground

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My twopennorth on alternative treatments- not really a tendon injury (never really knew what it was tbh).

I twatted my knee really hard a couple of years ago- crawling as fast as I could down a cave passage to escape from something which could easily have rearranged me all over the walls. It was f*cking excrutiating and I limped for a few days afterwards. What really hurt though, was any slight contact with my knee for months afterwards- even if the missus just brushed against it I'd be on the verge of throwing up withthe agony. I actually passed out when i tw*tted it the second time doing the same thing.

Anyway, the physio initially tried a bit of ultrasound, waste of time. The week after, acupuncture- this sorted the pain instantly and lasted a day at most, then it was back to square one...

Then i went to a free Reiki share group, where 3 people all did reiki on me at the same time for about 30 mins- bingo, 2 years pain free, unl;ess I really bash the knee, but even then it dunt last.

And the reiki feels really nice too...

r-man

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Reiki - never actually heard that name before. Cue some more googling:

Quote
Since the word Reiki means Universal Life Force Energy, it (strictly speaking) refers to the energy and not the specific techniques taught by Reiki Masters. The techniques are more properly called the Usui System of Natural Healing after the founder of the system, Dr. Mikao Usui. However as Reiki is the common name, and a fine name at that, this is the name we will use here.

A Reiki healing is very simply performed.  The practitioner places his or her hands upon the person to be healed with the intent for healing to occur, and then the energy begins flowing. The Reiki energy is smart since the Universe is a very smart place indeed. The energy knows where to go, and what to do once it gets there, or else is being directed by a higher intelligence. The energy manages its own flow to and within the recipient. It draws through the healer exactly that amount of energy which the recipient needs. All this happens without direct conscious intervention by the healer.  The healers job is to get out of the way, to keep the healing space open, and to watch/listen for signs of what to do next.


More of an explanation here (click introduction to reiki):

http://reiki.7gen.com/

I'd imagine this is the sort of theory that some people abhor, but for me the idea that modern physics might be progressing towards similiar ideas is an interesting one, even though I'm sure there is nothing concrete here that would be accepted from a scientific perspective.

Incidentally, I had a similiar problem with my knee once. I bent down to pick up a glove that I'd dropped and slipped on some ice. Not a big slip, but one knee hit the ground. It was agony for a minute or two, then it seemed ok. The next day, and for weeks after it was stiff and sore. And even now (about a year later) if I touch my knee against a table leg in one particular position I get a weird shooting feeling. I assumed I must have bruised a nerve or something, though it's never been serious enough to need medical attention.

underground

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Yep, that's the same sort of pain I was getting- probably neuralgia of some kind but rude as f**k. I get it around my right eye as well which hurts like hell.

r-man

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Wow, you can even request free long distance healing! Whether it works or not, it's very generous of them!

http://reiki.7gen.com/healing-requests.html

underground

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My mates brother in law does it for him all the way across the atlantic- he reckons that around the time agreed, he wakes up feeling really nice and relaxed and that...

Tim Heaton

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Aye, Sam says it should be pretty much the same for a elbow injury as a tendon injury. And energy is a bit like blood flow, I asked her to explain things as much as possible from a Western medicine point of view. Never tried reiki, there's loads of alternative stuff on the market today. I don't know how much of it works, I think a lot of healing has to do with pyschological aspects so if you think it will work it could well do.

As a statistician though I do think that acupuncture has been scientifically investigated and shown to have an effect. Not sure about the others, most tests attempt to involve a double blind aspect and so remove the pyschological placebo effect.

I am sure anyone would agree though that the best way to let it heal is of its own accord naturally.

If you do decide to take action though, let me know what alternative therapy you try and whether you thought it worked for you. I would be most interested in case I get injured again  :lol:

r-man

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Haven't tried any of those alternative therapies as I don't have the money, but my parents just got me Seven Seas Joint Care from Boots, which includes Glucosamine, chrondoitin, Cod liver oil and a whole bunch of vitamins. I'm all drugged up. According to the packet

Quote
glucosmaine lays down the foundation for the everyday rebuilding of the connective tissues around the joints, including tendons, ligaments and cartilage


I did want it initally just for my clicking knees (I'm only 23!) as I'd read somewhere that glucosamine doesn't have anything to do with tendons, but who knows...

Anyway, I've heard that it takes 3 months to see any effect on clicking joints, but ost people seem to think it works well. Hopefully it will work well for the tendons too. At 15quid a packet (of 30 not-so-mini missile size tablets) it aint cheap (though there are cheaper ones), but half the price of one session at the physio/alternative therapist. We'll see how it goes.

I am slightly worried that the side of the packet instructs me:

Quote

One capsule with liquid each day. If required, up to four capsules with liquid once a day.


What? If required? Having checked the ingredient list it seems there is no established daily allowance for glucosamine, chrondoitin or cod liver oil. Does this mean that if I take them all at once I might be better tomorrow? ;)

I think I'll stick to one a day, just to be safe...

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Not sure about cod liver or chrondoitin, but all the research that has been done on glucosamine has used >1500mg a day.  This is best taken (though not always practical) at intervals during the day.  A Doctor friend of mine linked oral glucosamine to pouring petrol on the top of your car...................... so of it might get into the petrol tank, but not all of it.

I have been using a topical glucosomine cream that seems to work a treat.  Apply to the dodgy area and hey presto reduces swelling and tweaks.  Not sure about using it every day though (cost, effectiveness)

D

JR

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Quote from: "r-man"
Haven't tried any of those alternative therapies as I don't have the money, but my parents just got me Seven Seas Joint Care from Boots, which includes Glucosamine, chrondoitin, Cod liver oil and a whole bunch of vitamins. I'm all drugged up. According to the packet

Quote
glucosmaine lays down the foundation for the everyday rebuilding of the connective tissues around the joints, including tendons, ligaments and cartilage


I did want it initally just for my clicking knees (I'm only 23!) as I'd read somewhere that glucosamine doesn't have anything to do with tendons, but who knows...

Anyway, I've heard that it takes 3 months to see any effect on clicking joints, but ost people seem to think it works well. Hopefully it will work well for the tendons too. At 15quid a packet (of 30 not-so-mini missile size tablets) it aint cheap (though there are cheaper ones), but half the price of one session at the physio/alternative therapist. We'll see how it goes.

I am slightly worried that the side of the packet instructs me:

Quote

One capsule with liquid each day. If required, up to four capsules with liquid once a day.


What? If required? Having checked the ingredient list it seems there is no established daily allowance for glucosamine, chrondoitin or cod liver oil. Does this mean that if I take them all at once I might be better tomorrow? ;)

I think I'll stick to one a day, just to be safe...


If anything glucosamine will make you click more.  Ive been taking it for nearly a year and it definitely helps, but it will make you click more by the nature of what clicking is and what glucosamine does.  MSM is a supplement for tendons which supposedly works.

JR

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Quote from: "Dylan"


I have been using a topical glucosomine cream that seems to work a treat.  Apply to the dodgy area and hey presto reduces swelling and tweaks.  Not sure about using it every day though (cost, effectiveness)

D


I take 1500mg

According to my physio who is a glucosmaine user the gels/creams do not work very effectively, similar to ibuprofen gels etc, the redcution in swelling etc is due to the massage and runbbing in.

Claire

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Just dragging the conversation back to acupuncture. Ive got shin splints. Walked into a scaffold pole at shin height and had searing pain for days. Went to see the physio at Ysbty Gwenydd and she stuck 3 pins in my leg, said she didn't know why it worked but its gone fron agonising when not walking on it to no pain (except when i jump up and down on 1 leg). I was amazed:)

And they get you to stick your tounge out cos apparantly you can tell all ills from the state of your tounge, or so ive read.

JR

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Quote from: "gruff"
JR, Have you tried liquid Glucosamine? Do you know if it gets absorbed better than pills, which as you've said, you have to take with food.

g


havnt tried it.  But yes it is absorbed better supposedly.  But, you just take less and its more expensive so cost wise it makes no difference.  But you dont get it enriched with chondroitin and msm.  Horses for courses i guess

jd

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Hello. I have been rehabilitating an elbow tendon problem for the last 6 months. Its finally getting better.

I too had accupuncture and it seemed to help. I also took a collagen supplement - Hydrolised (sp?) collagen from Holland and Barratt. It apparently stimulates the bodies own collagen production and can help in the repair of tendons.

I also did lots of eccentric contractions starting with light weights and slowly building up. See this article for more infor about the eccentric contractions.

http://jan.ucc.nau.edu/~sll/pubs_files/LaStayo%20JOSPT%202003.pdf

Probably the most important thing was 6 months off climbing while i did all this rehab stuff.

perugolate

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hey i've been taking glucosamine and chondroitin combined supplements for a dodgy elbow too and have noticed a marked reduction in pain. Glucosamine and chondroitin are modified amino sugars which are present in the ligaments/tendons/cartilage where they recruit nutrients for healing/growth. these tissues take years to strenghthen in response to climbing stress so the theory for the supplements is sound. They are also supposedly as effective as non-steroidal anti-inflammatory drugs i.e. ibuprofen and the like. Glucosamine/chondroitin aren't present in most foods and when they are, they are in low concentrations hence the supplements. They love it in america but doctors are sceptical about it on the continent where i believe it is prescription only. i've definitely noticed a difference since i started using this but it may be a combination of placebo effect and reduction in inflammation rather than actual strenghthening of my dodgy bits. The studies performed on it are probably all funded by the drug companies anyway and most likely exaggerate the effects. It's pretty pricey too and the cheaper ones probably arent much use so if you take it get high potency shiznit. i've been taking 2 capsules a day - seven seas ones with cod liver oil but i've seen others with up to four times the concentration of this brand!

Paz

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That's what we want to hear.  We should all want to believe in it.  I've said it once and I'll say it again, even if it's a placebo effect, the placebo effect works and you don't get a placebo by not taking something, and any benefit from it is probably in addition to the conventional good it's doing you.  That's how i like to use SCIENCE.  My Glucosamine from Health span is good value for the effect I get from it.

ian h

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glucosamine sulphate can be bought a fair bit cheaper on ebay

clm

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christ!! how do you lot get so damaged??
do y'all think these supplements are doing good?? ie do you reckon that if you stop you would be a crip?
guess what im asking is are all these chemicals cures for damage or are they preventative measures.  and if they are cures do you quit once you are fixed?  do any of you reckon you are supplement dependent?
what motivated you to start taking them??
discuss.

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I started taking glucosamine for the frst time in January this year - I was suffering with a painful hip joint that felt like it was going to dislocate. Within about a week it felt better and within 2 it felt virtually pain free.

I then tried some more glucosamine tablets with chondriten and this seemed to bring some strange side effects (gassy guts, wierd throaty feeling), so I stopped and haven't taken anything since. I do ache most of the time (always have), but I reckon I'll wait until something really painful comes along again before I start on the tablets again.

r-man

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what motivated you to start taking them??


Not being able to climb properly for over six months. I'll try anything, provided I can afford it and it won't kill me.

I dunno about the whole dependency thing. I'll think about that when and if the pills actually work. Though I've just done the chair test (where a stand on a chair using only one leg) and the knee clicks noticeably less than it used to. This is a good thing.

I'm not really expecting my tendon to improve that much from the pills, as despite the packet's claims everyone keeps saying that the only thing proved to help tendons is MSM and I haven't got any of that (yet!) though I've seen it available with glucosamine sulphate and chrondoitin. So maybe when this lot runs out I'll try that.

Expensive though pills are, they are cheaper than going to the physio/alternative therapist every week, so I reckon I'll test them out for another couple of months. Though to be honest, pills or no, it's been over 6 months now so I'd expect my tendon to heal soon anyway. Please, tendon, please...  

:cry:

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you on drugs now dude?

r-man

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you on drugs now dude?


You heard me. Now hand over your wallet. And your watch. Bet you thought the internet was safe... Sucker.

andy_e

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doh! not again. i hate it when you squeeze money from me.

r-man

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Found this on a discussion about tendonitis on 8a.nu. Some serious drugging:


Quote
I'm sorry to hear about the tendonitis dude. Its a MAJOR pain to live with. I'm 20 years old and have suffered horrible tendonitis and burcitis since I was 15.
I have it all the way from both shoulders down all the way into my hands pretty badly. I've seen many doctors about this and one of them even told me to quit climbing for good and that was just out of the picture for me, so I never talked to that doctor ever again.
Things that HAVE helped me is do windmills with my arms for like 2 minutes on each arm till I feel them getting warm and almost pumped, before I warm up for a climbing session. Suprisingly this has helped me alot.
Also, takes rests and don't over do it when your hurting. When I was in Hueco and talking with Fred Nicole he said to never just completely stop climbing for tendonitis but to do "athletic rests" meaning do climbs that don't cause you ANY pain at all and that are easy and comfortable. Over time you will get better depending on how well you take care of your body.
Things that I've taken to help with tendonitis and keeping healthy joints are.
*Bromelain- Helps rebuild tissue and support tendon repair. You can get this from "fresh" pinneapple and popaya's, but avoid canned pineapple which Bromelain usually gets vanished in from all the preservatives they use. I actually take the pill form 500 mg. twice a day, once in the morning and once at night before bedtime. This stuff has helped me alot.
*Glucosamine, Condroition Sulfate Sodium- Helps with joints and tendons. Very popular supplement for healthy joints, tendons, and muscle, etc. If your allergic to shellfish stay away from this stuff. I take it twice a day, same dosage as the Bromelain.
*MSM-Has alot of purposes but it mainly helps repair tissue, takes down imflamation, helps with skin repair, hair, etc. I take this twice a day as well.
*Alfalpha-Helps with toxins cleansing which can often cause tendonitis and bad imflamation. This stuff is also helping my immune system and keeping me well in this allergy season. When your immune system is healthy your able to recuperate alot faster to get BACK to climbing when your sore and having tendonitis you have to recuperate because you can only take so much of the pain and the abuse.
*Multi Daily Vitamin- Something like Centrum.
*Flax Seed Oil tablets- Great healthy fatty acids and takes down imflamation.
Then something my doctor right now told me to do to take down swelling and flarring which I immediately get even just warming up is, NAPROXEN SODIUM (Aleve). I take it 30 minutes before I climb and this takes down alot of the imflamation making climbing more "normal" like it used to be.
Over all listen to your body and find what works for you.
Some personal physical therapy excercises with a stretch band could really help your bicep. It helped my shoulders ALOT.
Yes, its boring but it pays off when you do regularly.
I hope you this helps you dude, let me know how its going.


All the way from his shoulders to his hands! :shock:   That's pretty bad.

a dense loner

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Over all listen to your body and find what works for you


genius, obviously did him a lot of good

Ru

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see post below...

Ru

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I've actually read this thread now.

I'm pretty sure glucoasamine/condroitin is effective on cartilage, not tendons, which are mede of different stuff. I noticed nothing by taking it, but there are trials that show improvement, but mostly with arthritis.

Topical creams are, I think, mostly crap. You body metabolises and uses things on a system wide basis, most things, a few drugs excepted, can't be absorbed through the skin. In the same way that smearing yourself with beef paste isn't going to increase your protein intake and make you grow, neither is smearing yourself with glucosamine going to repair your joints.

erm, sam

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I too have only just read this post.
I have been taking glucosamine, lately with chondritin. I can't honestly say I have noticed any difference. I am not so sore as I used to be, but I have been climbing less, and hopefully am being less of a shoulder/finger thrashing nob.
Nobody has mentioned Tumeric. I have been taking this for a while. It is a non steroidal antiinflamatory.. Apparently if you take it all the time, it decreases the inflamation response, so you can train a bit less tweakily.
Takes a while to kick in apparently, like a week or something, so I take a pill every mornign. I don't know if it has helped really. But I do know that taking two pills every morning makes me feel like i am doing something to reduce tendon stress. And ordering the really expensive Tumeric off the internet gives me somethign to do at work that is "climbing related". Slightly climbing related.

SA Chris

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You mean Tumeric, as in the stuff you put in curries?

r-man

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Um...but isn't inflammation a sign that you've damaged your tendon and should rest? Correct me if I'm wrong, but it's the symptom , not the problem, so it's like taking headache pills but carrying on headbutting things...

erm, sam

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Yes, kind of. I am not an expert (in any way), but.
The inflamatory response is not allways a totally appropriate response by the body to injury. By this I mean, the bodies inflamation response may not help injuries repair quickest in some cases.
An example would be studies which show that eg, runners who sprain an ankle get better quicker if ice is applied to the injury site immediatly. The rest and repair time can be a lot quicker compared to if no ice is used.
Ice is simply a way of decreasing the bodies response to the injury: Less blood arrives at the injury site, less "injury markers" are left, and less "emergency injury repair" mechanisms  respond to those markers.
This results in quicker repair, because some of the injury recovery time is in fact just spend dissasembling the repair mechanisms.
So I understand the Tumeric will decrease the body's over-response to slight injuries allowing normal repair to take place.
Mind you, personally I heard Tumeric helped decrease inflamation, so I took it. Thats that. I have only rationalised it later.
I understand that it is recomended by some Physios who deffo know their stuff, and basically, thats enough for me.
I am sure some sports phys type is going to correct all the inaccuracies in my post.
And yes, Tumeric of Curry fame.

a dense loner

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i have found that tumeric helps you process food a LOT faster

Paz

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So why do you order the really expensive stuff off the internet when it costs 60p for more than you'll use cooking in a year from an indian super market?  Do you still get the benefit if you have it in Dahl or Chicken Tikka Masala?

erm, sam

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You still get the benefit , but the (fucking expensive) tablets have about 500 time the amount of the active ingredient compared to honest normal Tumeric. You still get a benefit , I expect, but you would have to eat pounds of it...

 

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