[petejh]

Up to your second comma that world exists, you live in it.

It's a pity the last bit doesn't exist on the 'popular' peaks but there are plenty of empty mountains. Reminds me of climbing in the Southern Alps of NZ, I especially used to enjoy climbing on the Hooker Valley side of Mt Cook. The Hooker Valley is a no-fly zone and the approach up the glacier takes two days. I'd enjoy walking in with all my gear and food to climb the faces on Mt Cook and surrounding peaks in total isolation, living alone in the NZAC hut for a week at a time. The valley next door, Tasman Glacier, is the normal approach to Mt Cook by flying-in, and you'd be sharing the mountains with plenty of others. Two different worlds.

[Johnny Brown]

This made me think about the Inaccessible Pinnacle. There are a few blocky bits on top and it looks like getting to the top of them would involve a few moves of scrambling/climbing - i.e. more technical than walking. I can't remember which of these might have been the tallest, whether they are difficult to get to the top of, and I can't really remember whether we went to the top of any of them? Do the guides get people to go up those bits?

Are you talking about the right mountain? The In Pin is clearly the summit and the highest bit is big, unambiguous and 'inaccessible'. Yes, munro completists often hire a guide to get them up it. It's a Mod, but very exposed and descent is typically by abbing the V Diff direct. From this info I'd certainly be cynical about your summit claim.

[Will Hunt]

This made me think about the Inaccessible Pinnacle. There are a few blocky bits on top and it looks like getting to the top of them would involve a few moves of scrambling/climbing - i.e. more technical than walking. I can't remember which of these might have been the tallest, whether they are difficult to get to the top of, and I can't really remember whether we went to the top of any of them? Do the guides get people to go up those bits?

Are you talking about the right mountain? The In Pin is clearly the summit and the highest bit is big, unambiguous and 'inaccessible'. Yes, munro completists often hire a guide to get them up it. It's a Mod, but very exposed and descent is typically by abbing the V Diff direct. From this info I'd certainly be cynical about your summit claim.

The Mod takes you to a long ledge at the top from which you abseil. This ledge has some large blocks on it (which are the abseil anchor) which you can get to the top of without too much difficulty. The Munro bagger under the tutelage of a guide in the video definitely doesn't do it (I don't care). I have no recollection of what we did at the top of the In Pinn other than we abseiled down on someone else's rope. I seem to remember that we were a bit fussy in going to each summit cairn so we probably did nip up the summit blocks. However I have no uncut, 4K definition video of this, and our traverse was witnessed only by an early-rising Spanish dog. Please strike me from the list.

It's just interesting that the same meaningless issues that the 8km nerds obsess over (the difference of one or two metres on an 8000m+ peak - FFS) are not really shared by Munro obsessives who are happy to stand on the In Pinn ledge and not climb the blocks. By the time you get to boulderers you've come full circle and people will laugh you off the crag with their jubilant cries of "DAB!" if a hair on your head brushes a leaf on a neighbouring bush mid-ascent. I predict in a few years time we'll have to invalidate ascents if there's an on-crag wind of more than 20mph.

[Fiend]

On crag winds will be a moot point as everyone will have their own portable fan (and indeed fan-bearer for 9b / 8C upwards).

[duncan]

I've enjoyed John Middendorf's series of essays about technology and climbing, chapters of a possible book. He's reached pitons in the early 20th century. Bolts - the one you're all waiting for - are coming soon.

[andy popp]

Alpinist have been running a similar-ish sounding series on a highly eclectic selection of different bits of significant gear - shorter I think, though, and by different authors.

[jwi]

Interview with Toni Arbones

https://www.emontana-magazine.com/toni-arbones-siurana-interview/

[jwi]

The art of downgrading, by Pierre Délas (I presume). Scroll down for English.

https://fanatic-climbing.com/lart-de-la-decotation-downgrading-as-an-art-form/

[slab_happy]

https://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-adventure/climbing/utah-base-jumping-rescue-rock-climber/

Learn to offwidth, save a life.

[Duncan campbell]

Not sure if this fits best here but thought some people might be interested…

Whilst on some random instagram stroll, I clicked on the page of a friend of mine (and probably many others here), Ramon Marin.

Noticed he has been involved in creating a book/zine (what actually is a zine!?) about Pembroke.

https://thepembrokebond.com/

Looks really nice, and non-profit. Though something fishy must be going on as that gold-digging, misinformation mongering, atm of the evil empire Rockfax are involved 

Anyway, maybe if this goes well they will make a nice coffee table book? Would love one of those!

[Neil F]

Clocked that via a link on the other channel, in the article about Ed Morris doing Olympiad….

Ordered my copy right away

 

[petejh]

Looks really nice, and non-profit. Though something fishy must be going on as that gold-digging, misinformation mongering, atm of the evil empire Rockfax are involved 

Anyway, maybe if this goes well they will make a nice coffee table book? Would love one of those!

BP used to sponsor the National Portrait Gallery... it's the sort of vanity project type of stuff you have the luxury of doing when you're an evil empire.

Joking, mostly. Zine looks good.

[jakaitch]

Not sure if this fits best here but thought some people might be interested…

Whilst on some random instagram stroll, I clicked on the page of a friend of mine (and probably many others here), Ramon Marin.

Noticed he has been involved in creating a book/zine (what actually is a zine!?) about Pembroke.

https://thepembrokebond.com/

Looks really nice, and non-profit. Though something fishy must be going on as that gold-digging, misinformation mongering, atm of the evil empire Rockfax are involved 

Anyway, maybe if this goes well they will make a nice coffee table book? Would love one of those!

I'm curious now, what's so evil about rockfax?

[Duncan campbell]

I just think it’s funny that people (especially on ukb) seem to dislike ukc and Rockfax so much. I just jest that they are the evil empire.

I’m not saying they are perfect but they are no different to Most outdoor companies. What exactly people don’t like about them I couldn’t say, though people often cite Rockfax as having lots of mistakes. I can’t imagine there are no guides that don’t have any mistakes- it’s a lot of information to put in a book.

Met one of the SMC publishers whilst on holiday in Scotland recently and he told he put the GPS coordinates in for a crag from the new Scottish rock guide and they were for somewhere in Cornwall!

[Duma]

2 different things, surprised you wouldn't be aware tbh:

Lots of regulars (including the founder) on here have been banned from UKC for nonsensical reasons. I believe Bubba actually started UKB in response.

Lots of folk dislike rockfax for their history of riding on the back of others work to profit, often at the expense of the local guidebooks and equippers. Certainly lots of European developers have been very down on them for this reason

[webbo]

I’m banned from UKC for making a joke with a land owner who had requested people to stop climbing in the quarry on his small holding. He said he was going to to contact the BMA to discuss this. I said that wouldn’t  be much use unless it was his GP climbing in the quarry. He saw the funny side but UKC didn’t .

[Fiend]

I’m banned from UKC for criticising an article heavily promoting headpointing (well, heavily promoting Franco, really) and criticising UKC for posting it, without any swearing / insulting / personal abuse (I double-checked the UKC forum guidelines to ensure I hadn't contravened them). My post, which apparently was worth banning me for, was still kept up and had a lot of user engagement in terms of likes/dislikes and replies directly to that post.

This is the context of my stance on ethics being well known for 15 years so obviously not trolling, and being the moderator of two major / difficult crags, and having a photo gallery of nearly 800 pictures, the vast majority of which were of routes / crags with no other pictures.

I do think there is a potential clash of interest with a public forum intrinsically, and possibly non-neutrally, linked to a commercial guidebook company, and with a public routes database also being intrinsically linked to the same company.

[andy moles]

I’m banned from UKC for making a joke with a land owner who had requested people to stop climbing in the quarry on his small holding. He said he was going to to contact the BMA to discuss this. I said that wouldn’t  be much use unless it was his GP climbing in the quarry. He saw the funny side but UKC didn’t .

Wow. I just went and looked this up thinking there must have been a bit more to it, but there really wasn't. And the landowner clearly took it in good humour. I can't believe you got banned for that.

[andy moles]

I’m banned from UKC for criticising an article heavily promoting headpointing

Also went back and read this and again, it seems bizarre that you got banned for that. Sure it's a strongly expressed opinion that a lot of people won't like, but that is basically what animates every forum on the internet isn't it?

[andy popp]

Lots of folk dislike rockfax for their history of riding on the back of others work to profit, often at the expense of the local guidebooks and equippers.

Personally, this precisely why I dislike Rockfax.

Disappointingly, despite having a couple of pretty public barneys with AJ and CC, I've never been banned from UKC (I've had several identities there because I don't use it and then can't remember my login. At the moment I very occasionally post as B-Team).

[seankenny]

I dislike Rockfax for their inaccuracy and not helping route developers, but on the other hand I also have a Buoux guidebook from the 1990s and it’s incredibly basic.

[Duncan campbell]

I agree, some of the bannings can be quite OTT/heavy handed. I haven’t read either of your threads but they do sound a bit savage, especially yours Webbo.

I don’t know when all that happened but if it was when Mick Ryan was still there then sounded like he was a bit of a dick.

Lots of folk dislike rockfax for their history of riding on the back of others work to profit, often at the expense of the local guidebooks and equippers. Certainly lots of European developers have been very down on them for this reason

I agree some of that stuff isn’t great,  but I do think that Alan has seen the error of his ways and now contributes to bolt funds.

I also don’t think Rockfax guidebooks are the best of the best, but they did push standards and guidebooks in the UK are now way better than anywhere else. You could argue that wired guides have piggy-backed off rockfax the concept of a select guidebook and used an exceedingly similar visual format, in fact they did do this in an attempt to squeeze Rockfax out!

As I said before UKClimbing Ltd company isn’t perfect, Alan (who doesn’t own it anymore) can be a funny fella but is a mostly decent guy who is passionate about climbing.

 I guess I just find it funny that so much angst is meted out against them but not other companies who can be just as sneaky, and probably give less back, UKC is a free service after all. (Yes you can be a supporter now but you can also not and get pretty much all the same features bar a few?)
DMM loves to copy other companies’ products but you don’t see them getting the same stick.

I did work for UKC for a bit so it might be that I’m biased, but I got paid very little and then got let go with little warning that that was the way it was going… so I could be bitter and hate them too, but I still do think that overall they aren’t so bad and do add some useful stuff to the UK climbing scene.
I haven’t looked at the forums other than to sell stuff for a long long time though.

Maybe I’m massively naive, but I don’t think they are any worse than any other company out there. 

Edit: that’s my 2p anyway, obviously all welcome to your own opinions!  also if UKC’s heavy-handed banning created UKB then maybe it is a policy that has some good! 

[danm]

The Wired guides were never an attempt to squeeze out Rockfax, that would be futile. They were in fact an attempt by the traditional guidebook producers to make some profit to put back into producing loss making definitive guides. This is the main criticism of Rockfax - they have upped the standard of guides considerably but at the cost of making the production of definitive guides for less popular areas less viable because they've captured the market (and profits) of the honeypot areas.

How you feel about that is a personal choice - I'm not bothered either way and as it keeps Fatboy off the streets...

[webbo]

I agree, some of the bannings can be quite OTT/heavy handed. I haven’t read either of your threads but they do sound a bit savage, especially yours Webbo.

I don’t know when all that happened but if it was when Mick Ryan was still there then sounded like he was a bit of a dick.

It was post Mick Ryan when I got banned. I’m not sure but I think it was someone like Rob Greenwood who wielded the big stick.

[Will Hunt]

I don't have much new to say about Rockfax that I haven't said many times before. The shortest summary is that it isn't possible to put in as much effort as is required to make a good quality guidebook if you're having to pay your contributors and turn a profit. I don't want to completely slag them, because even to make a poorly researched guidebook requires plenty of effort, and plenty of the people involved are nice. I like Rob, but I'm cross with him because he assured me that UKC would review Northern Rock if we advertised with them and, despite months of me nagging, they then did not review the book. The review was what I really wanted for the book as it would be a fairly reliable Google hit. There's a huge conflict of interest between Rockfax and UKC. Maybe it was Rob being nice because he wanted to completely slate the book and preferred to just not review it at all, but I can't see anybody having that poor of an opinion of it that they'd trash it.

Duncan's right that there will always be mistakes, but not of the sort where a line has been mislabelled as the wrong route. My final proof reading process for Northern Rock lasted from September to February, working on it most nights for a couple of hours or more. I checked every page in excruciating detail. It made me realise just how many mistakes were in the Rockfax Northern Limestone. And these aren't small mistakes either, this is route after route after route shown going to the wrong belay, or only going halfway up the crag when it actually goes 10 or 15m higher, or belays shown in completely the wrong place or not at all. You can shrug and say "who cares?" and you'd be right. Most people don't care. The standard that I tried to hold myself to was perfection and the standard for Rockfax seems to be good-enough-to-sell-and-meet-the-production-schedule.

Independent UK guidebooks are bleeding-out and may as well be declared dead now. Very few people are buying guidebooks any more and lots of shops don't want to stock them. People want to use the Rockfax app, something which the clubs and the BMC are organisationally incapable of competing with. You can hardly blame Rockfax for being too commercially successful, but it does make me very sad because guidebooks always offered something that I thought was special. There was passion on the page that is completely absent from the Rockfax books.