[CapitalistPunter]

Copying a post off Facebook:

"Looks like the National Trust are taking a new interest in Windy Knoll Cave which may present some access issues in the near future. A new sign has been stuck on the cave mouth, the old small sign is back up and 5 new fence posts have been installed with signs on. The old fence has been removed but as yet no new fence. There is no reference to climbing in the signs so I'm assuming they are aimed at walkers but probably worth someone tagging in the BMC Access rep (John Fulwood?). If you've got something worked maybe get it sent asap while there is no fence and keep a low profile."

The new signs say there was recently rockfall and not to enter the cave.

[Bonjoy]

The rockfall was in 2005. In geological terms I suppose that does count as recent.

[Carliios]

The next rockfall is due in -checks watch- around 3 million years time. Please steer clear of the cave, thank you - National Trust

[teestub]

Gutted to have missed out on all the 3 star eliminates 

[tomtom]

I think the rockfall notice/warning is about stuff in the cave - but I went there with Plattsy a couple of weeks ago - and we both decided it looked dodgy.

Its really not clear on any of the vids, so this may seem a fuss about nothing to the armchair viewer, but the problems seem to end involving the 'thin' bit of the arch of the roof on the RH side of this picture. Here the roof of the cave at the lip (and a wee distance into the cave) is probably 20cm thick (including the turf and soil). I'd avoid going anywhere near this bit of the roof (which was where the problems seemed to go) as it didn't look very stable - or much rock to support it!



This is the view from above the lip - which also gives an idea of how precarious it looks.



Each to their own - but Peak lime can be fickle stuff and it may well last another 500 years - or collapse tomorrow. Having my 70-75kg swinging around on it would not help the longevity.... so I/we walked away.

[Carliios]

Gutted to have missed out on all the 3 star eliminates 

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

[Carliios]

I think the rockfall notice/warning is about stuff in the cave - but I went there with Plattsy a couple of weeks ago - and we both decided it looked dodgy.

Its really not clear on any of the vids, so this may seem a fuss about nothing to the armchair viewer, but the problems seem to end involving the 'thin' bit of the arch of the roof on the RH side of this picture. Here the roof of the cave at the lip (and a wee distance into the cave) is probably 20cm thick (including the turf and soil). I'd avoid going anywhere near this bit of the roof (which was where the problems seemed to go) as it didn't look very stable - or much rock to support it!



This is the view from above the lip - which also gives an idea of how precarious it looks.



Each to their own - but Peak lime can be fickle stuff and it may well last another 500 years - or collapse tomorrow. Having my 70-75kg swinging around on it would not help the longevity.... so I/we walked away.

There’s much heavier people who have climbed the lines but totally understandable that you wouldn’t want to risk it. Tbh it felt pretty solid when climbing but to each their own like you said!

[SA Chris]

so I/we walked away.

I would have done the same. Not like there are no other things to spend my time on. I found a similar looking cave feature up near Boddam about 10 years ago, and pointed it out to a few people. No takers yet..

[abarro81]

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

There might be 10 problems, but there definitely aren't 10 lines 

[Carliios]

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

There might be 10 problems, but there definitely aren't 10 lines 

A good bunch of them are 15+ moves. Longer than some of the more well known “lines” at sport venues in the peak.

[andy popp]

The number of moves has zero to do with whether something is a line.

[Carliios]

Ahhh I see, so you’re just being pedantic, got it! Thanks guys.

[Droyd]

Delightfully off-topic but I do think we need a bit more stringency on this point: Malc's Arete, London Wall, and Divided Years are all 'lines', which are very different from 'problems'/'routes'. Not all lines are routes/problems (Wizard Ridge, off the top of my head) and not all routes/problems are/have lines (99% of Peak lime).

I'd go so far as to say that Windy Knoll Cave is a lot better than places like Griff's (as an example of a beloved Peak lime venue) if we're talking 'lines', in that the rock actually has features (cracks, the shield) rather than an array of crimps of varying size and painfulness and one slightly bigger crimp that is referred to as 'the jug' in every problem description on the basis that it's a 20mm edge. If someone rang me while they were at Windy Knoll and asked where one of the problems went I reckon I'd pretty easily be able to walk them through it on the basis that there are lots of clear features; if someone wanted the same for a random Griff's problem I think it'd be quicker just to jump in the car and drive over there...

[User deactivated.]

one slightly bigger crimp that is referred to as 'the jug' in every problem description on the basis that it's a 20mm edge.

Subtle humble-brags.

[abarro81]

Ah, now we're confusing "lines" with "lines" (i.e. good lines) 
I'd say Griff's has 86.3 problems, 3 lines, and no lines

[36chambers]

one slightly bigger crimp that is referred to as 'the jug' in every problem description on the basis that it's a 20mm edge.

Subtle humble-brags.

But, does anyone else consider a jug to be anything they can cut loose on?

I also think this is the quickest way to convey to someone that the hold they are about to go for is so good that they should stick it even if their feet pop. Reception has been mixed so far...

[User deactivated.]

one slightly bigger crimp that is referred to as 'the jug' in every problem description on the basis that it's a 20mm edge.

Subtle humble-brags.

But, does anyone else consider a jug to be anything they can cut loose on?

I also think this is the quickest way to convey to someone that the hold they are about to go for is so good that they should stick it even if their feet pop. Reception has been mixed so far...

I'd say this holds up if the average climber of the grade being climbed could hang it with 1 arm...

A 20mm flatty is probably not a jug on a steep 7B but it might be on an 8B.

[Bradders]

Having my 70-75kg swinging around on it would not help the longevity.... so I/we walked away.

Each to their own. I've had my 77kg swinging around on it once a week for the last couple of months just working through everything and it's always felt solid.

Delightfully off-topic but I do think we need a bit more stringency on this point: Malc's Arete, London Wall, and Divided Years are all 'lines', which are very different from 'problems'/'routes'. Not all lines are routes/problems (Wizard Ridge, off the top of my head) and not all routes/problems are/have lines (99% of Peak lime).

I'd go so far as to say that Windy Knoll Cave is a lot better than places like Griff's (as an example of a beloved Peak lime venue) if we're talking 'lines', in that the rock actually has features (cracks, the shield) rather than an array of crimps of varying size and painfulness and one slightly bigger crimp that is referred to as 'the jug' in every problem description on the basis that it's a 20mm edge. If someone rang me while they were at Windy Knoll and asked where one of the problems went I reckon I'd pretty easily be able to walk them through it on the basis that there are lots of clear features; if someone wanted the same for a random Griff's problem I think it'd be quicker just to jump in the car and drive over there...

10/10

Very confusing terminology when people use "lines" and "problems" interchangeably. More so when they (Carlos  ) describe shite like Silver Trout at the Cliff as a "line" when it demonstrably isn't. 

[spidermonkey09]

Very confusing terminology when people use "lines" and "problems" interchangeably. More so when they (Carlos  ) describe shite like Silver Trout at the Cliff as a "line" when it demonstrably isn't. 

Same with sport climbing as well. A route can be a good line, but routes and lines are not the same thing. Possibly this usage has arisen from the lines on a topo, or just an enthusiastic overuse of 'line' as an indicator of quality rather than aesthetics. Interestingly I have never heard anyone say 'thats a shit line' when they mean its a shit problem or route, only to mean that the visual/aesthetic element is lacking/absent.

[teestub]

Gutted to have missed out on all the 3 star eliminates 

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

I would consider any problem that avoids the easiest line to the top to link into another problem an eliminate.

[User deactivated.]

Gutted to have missed out on all the 3 star eliminates 

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

I would consider any problem that avoids the easiest line to the top to link into another problem an eliminate.

I can't decide whether I agree or disagree, but taking this to its logical conclusion means everything is eliminate if you can walk up the back.

[Carliios]

Gutted to have missed out on all the 3 star eliminates 

There’s 10 lines and 2 are eliminates 

I would consider any problem that avoids the easiest line to the top to link into another problem an eliminate.

Fully disagree with this but you do you bro

[spidermonkey09]

I can't decide whether I agree or disagree, but taking this to it's logical conclusion means everything is eliminate if you can walk up the back.

This is surely reductio ad absurdum

[User deactivated.]

I can't decide whether I agree or disagree, but taking this to it's logical conclusion means everything is eliminate if you can walk up the back.

This is surely reductio ad absurdum

Yes, that was on purpose, but only slightly more reductio ad absurdum than Teestub's argument?

Picture a perfect V shaped crack half way up a problem/route where the cracks extend to the top. Undoubtedly great lines. On the left it is 6A and on the right it is 7A. Teestub's definition makes the right hand line an eliminate!

But I do agree in some instances, e.g. where it isn't a logical line then it could just be eliminate.

[Carliios]

Does that make all sit starts eliminates since it’s easier to start standing?