Quote from: shark on June 30, 2022, 09:18:47 amIt’s ODG now Lol oops Quote from: Offwidth on June 30, 2022, 01:29:32 pmOn Facebook BMCwashing: Dave T Says the adverts were delayed while they agreed two roles to replace Robs old role (a FT access and conservation role for England; and a contractor role to cover the Land and Property management) and that he (Dave) will be providing interim cover. I wish Rob the very best ... he has been brilliant over the years.Dave's new role was 4 days a week from the start.The job adverts for both are out now: https://www.thebmc.co.uk/bmc-jobsFully agree with how good Rob D has been, very highly thought of by all the access reps I know too.Quote from: Carliios on June 30, 2022, 09:36:43 amNo wonder we’re losing access left right and centre, they need to pull a finger out and get this sorted asap As Rob D is still in post for another three weeks, I can't see how him leaving can be the cause for any recent access problems. Not to play-down the help Rob has offered (especially with some of the more complex or time consuming access negotiations), the majority of access work in the Peak is done by volunteers, so I'm struggling to understand your point.
It’s ODG now
On Facebook BMCwashing: Dave T Says the adverts were delayed while they agreed two roles to replace Robs old role (a FT access and conservation role for England; and a contractor role to cover the Land and Property management) and that he (Dave) will be providing interim cover. I wish Rob the very best ... he has been brilliant over the years.Dave's new role was 4 days a week from the start.
No wonder we’re losing access left right and centre, they need to pull a finger out and get this sorted asap
The signs at Churnet have been up for months and very little if anything has been done to speak with the owners as far as anyones aware.
Same with griffs, access issues for ages and no one from BMC has made any effort to contact the farmer or update anyone.
I will be attending the meeting and trying to get more involved for sure because it would be nice to regain access to these wonderful venues!
The churnet example is actually quite good I think personally. The signs for are only placed on the one gated entrance, there’s 3 different approaches into Wright’s rock, 2 of which aren’t signposted so that already makes it easy for people to miss the new rules.Secondly the rules themselves are weird and unenforceable, how can you make sure there’s only 6 people at Wrights rock at any one time? I think in these cases it would be good to have a professional body with history in dealing with sensitive access issues instead of leaving it to random climbers or volunteers to resolve.
With griffs, surely the bmc would again have some sort of way of finding who the landowner is and then contacting them directly, I very much doubt they’d need to go door knocking.
Just on this though; presumably people who visit the crag either a) own a guidebook, which means they should be aware of the need to check RAD when it comes to clmbing outside or b) use ukc instead of a guidebook, which means access info is even more prominent. They have to be using one of these tools or how else do they know where to park, how to walk in and where the problems are when they arrive? I'm happy to be told otherwise on this, is there a new platform of information I'm missing? I basically don't believe that people are climbing there outside of Fri/Sat/Sun in ignorance of the rules; there is every opportunity to learn about them. The more likely scenario is people are just ignoring them which reflects badly on us as climbers.
I'm sure this is so obvious that it's been tried, but was there nothing available on the Land Registry?
Access exists on a spectrum from explicitly prohibited and actively enforced, to explicitly allowed and actively encouraged. Most places we climb lie somewhere between those extremes
In North Wales a large amount of the climbing lies at the actively encouraged doesn’t it, being on access land?
I think over the last decade or so the combination of access to information and number of climbers has probably meant that the previous laissez faire ‘no one has said no so far so I’ll take that as a yes’ access style is just going to lead to more and more issues.
Quote from: teestub on July 01, 2022, 12:11:34 pmI think over the last decade or so the combination of access to information and number of climbers has probably meant that the previous laissez faire ‘no one has said no so far so I’ll take that as a yes’ access style is just going to lead to more and more issues. I agree, which is why I'm not in favour of what the BMC is doing to grow numbers of people getting into climbing. To be blunt, I think the desire for growth and associated funding/status off the back of competition climbing's status risks the unintended consequence of damaging some aspects of climbing in the outdoors. Climbing in the outdoors has often been carried out under a principle of 'better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission' and it's how many treasured climbs have come into existence. This doesn't work with large increases in numbers and formal approaches to seeking access.
Quote from: Carliios on June 30, 2022, 09:36:43 amNo wonder we’re losing access left right and centre, they need to pull a finger out and get this sorted asap As others have said, there's not really any causal link here between Rob leaving and the access problems you identify Carlos.We don't have the right to climb at these places, there is no automatic privilege, and access negotiations for climbing did take place in Staffs, it was Climbers who put these at risk. The BMC's bargaining power reduced overnight really.The BMC head office Access team works closely with the local area volunteers, as it is the latter who have an ear to the ground in these matters and often the work is done in the background so it's never publicised a great deal. The BMC meetings are the best places to discuss these matters and understand the work and restrictions that are often imposed due to less than reposnsible behaviour from climbers, but other times just a landowner exercising their rights.I had the pleasure of working with Rob on many Access matters over the years for the Peak area and he has done a fabulous job during his tenure, dare I say the best Access officer the BMC employed in his role and he has worked tirelessly to protect access in the Peak and UK as a whole. I wish him all the best in his new ventures.
I'm not at all convinced most access flash points are down to growth in numbers as they mainy honeypot... it's probably more about bad behaviour from a small minority of those who should should know better in my view.
Take Griffs; years ago it was a niche micro-venue which was popular with a small group of climbers keen to use it for training. These days it's been rare to go there and not find at least a couple of other people there.
What about working more closely with land owners, possibly offering volunteers (I would be happy to volunteer) to do things like crag cleanups, fixing fences and signposting and maybe reaching out to climbers who are in the area.
Climbing in the outdoors has often been carried out under a principle of 'better to beg forgiveness than ask for permission' and it's how many treasured climbs have come into existence. This doesn't work with large increases in numbers and formal approaches to seeking access.