[steveri]

Friday afternoon chin stroker: how do you get out of your own head and just do what you need to do? Get more towards that 'flow state' gubbins where it just happens, switching off the internal monologue.

Background: crazy amount of time finishing a problem over 4 sessions. Sit start to a problem I'd done before. The stand-up was always quite fluffable, but fairly quickly worked out how to get through the sit ...still quite droppable in a few places to put together.

Every time a little voice intruded with "I can do this" ...I fell off. Knowing you can do the moves but being unable to complete became frustrating. Not gnashing and wailing, just annoying.

Success was the classic: "I'm done now, one last go before dark." No pressure.

Anyone else? Tactics?

[Bradders]

Following....

[abarro81]

90s/00s trance on the ipod for me, at least for endurance routes. Something a bit more aggressive for short things or boulders, maybe some dnb. Either way, music just before the try can make a big difference to me getting in a good headspace

[Hoseyb]

I don't think it's a case of killing the chatter, it's more about the internal noise slotting into the rhythm of the occasion. Bit hippie I know, but even as Jonny Cash's guitar sounds like a train, that chugging along as the current drags you on.
Acceptance of the moment, holding things lightly, breath control. All things that might help.

I however, on more than one occasion, have found the Indiana Jones theme tune helps a lot.

[battery]

Whilst Hazel Findlay has traditionally focussed on mental training to overcome fear I think she's beginning to delve into this kind of thing recently.

Also think this looks good, I follow the author on Facebook and there's some useful tips/chat on there. https://smartclimbing.co.uk/

[Wood FT]

I don't think you can force yourself into the 'present' but Jerry's Mastermind book had a section on having a deliberate routine before you start a route or problem, be that breathing, checking equipment, or a last-minute visualisation. I like to chat before a route, like to chat all the time, but having that space between chat and climb was always crucial to me climbing my best prior to the current chubby hubby phase.

A focus on your boot rubber working on a nubbin, placement of a pinky in a slot or just putting my head on the rock when the situation allowed appeared, to 'quiet' my mind.

That being said, I applied all that and still didn't do the route I wanted to, and it wasn't much fun. Go climb another rock. 

[Wood FT]

accidentally quoted myself. Duplicate post.

[Duncan campbell]

I think practicing mindfulness techniques can help. I practiced a lot of mindfulness last winter (for non-climbing reasons) and often used mindfulness techniques (and also techniques Hazel recommends) to “quieten my mind” before a hard route.

I often try and close my eyes and focus on my breathing or focus on the feeling of chalking up my hands. I often find people want to chatter just before pulling on so if it’s a long route will do this at the rests.

Having said all that, on easier routes sometimes chatting away before setting off can have the desired effect…

It’s kind of like chasing a ghost… I honestly think practicing mindfulness increases the likelihood of hitting flow state, as does picking the right challenge level.

It’s a fun thing to chase, nothing beats flow state.

[abarro81]

I don't think it's a case of killing the chatter, it's more about the internal noise slotting into the rhythm of the occasion.

I think this fits well with my experiences. It's not necessarily that internal thought processes and conversations disappear for me, though perhaps they're less frequent, but as much that I'm enjoying those thoughts rather than fighting them

[cheque]

My experiences of achieving that flow state have always involved music, in the sense of having a song in my head, taking up the “spare” bit of my brain that otherwise makes me overthink and distracts me as I climb.

This is a fascinating subject and I wrote loads that, while absolutely “safe for work” is peripheral to the original question so I’ve made it optional so as not to clutter the thread up.

NSFW  :

The first few years I was climbing I only climbed trad, onsight, and I overachieved to a certain extent. I would have songs in my head involuntarily whenever I found myself in that zone, usually but not always triggered by having a thought that involved words in the lyrics. The song would start playing in my head and I’d do the moves without distraction. The music would be playing absolutely vividly and I’d be enjoying and appreciating it in a way that I’d rarely done before, like when I’d first heard it and I’d sometimes reach the belay with a greater appreciation of it than before, the feeling of success making it seem even better. If I think of some of the routes I did in that state I can clearly remember the song and vice versa.

As I moved more into sport climbing and redpointing and became  stronger and better at climbing but more risk-averse and less spontaneous I learnt to harness the “song in the head” technique voluntarily. As I set off up a route I knew the moves for but hadn’t led clean yet I’d get my breathing going steady and start a particular pre-selected song in my head like I was pressing play- part of the routine method that Guy mentions Jerry recommending. It was like when I used to pay gigs- the show would start and the butterflies would vanish, then it would be the end almost as soon as it began. The summer I did all my hardest redpoints (not hard in the grand scheme of things but hard for me) I had one particular tune that worked a treat.

I listened to that song for the first time in years this evening when I first started thinking about writing this post and I could remember certain redpoints, the feel of some holds I’d forgotten about and subtle things about the atmospheres of crags I haven’t been to for years. Wild.

Since I had to start climbing from scratch again I’ve only been psyched for onsight trad and the music (and in some ways my climbing) is more like it was when I first started- not planned and not always there. I’m not sure how much of that is due to the style of climbing and how much is due to the fact that I’m much less in control mentally (when climbing!) than I used to be though.

A lot of this is surely related to how much I love music and how much of a musical and auditory-focused person I am but it’s also, I think, due to my relationships with climbing and music. I’m very confident about music- I feel like I understand it at an absolutely fundamental level and nothing about it intimidates me.

Climbing, no matter how much I do it and learn about it, always feels like something I can’t fully “master” in that way and I have never felt the confidence in the act of climbing that I have in creating, performing or analysing music. As well as the distracting and occupying element of the “song in the head” method I think it brings some of the confidence I feel in one world into the other one. Many of the songs in my redpoint playlist, I now realise, have affirmative and/ or reassuring lyrics…

[steveri]

Very interesting stuff. I’m not sure I’ve ever employed particular tactics, but have definitely used music or a little word mantra to fill the space, leaving no room for the inner voice to butt in.

I think the rare true flow state for me is when absolutely nothing is going on up top, it all just kind of happens.

The odd part of the most recent thing was I’d done all the separate moves fairly quickly, but the long process of putting it all together made me think it was psychological. I’ve previously just kind of gravitated to what works without too much introspection. Good to hear other people’s thoughts.

[Fiend]

An interesting topic I always meant to come back to. Not least because I don't have a good clear answer.

A focus on your boot rubber working on a nubbin, placement of a pinky in a slot or just putting my head on the rock when the situation allowed appeared, to 'quiet' my mind.

That being said, I applied all that and still didn't do the route I wanted to, and it wasn't much fun. Go climb another rock.

This is one of the more feasible things in my experience (albeit usually with the same result). Narrowing the focus down to things you can really focus on - the feel of the holds, the feel of the moves, the precision, the adjustments. The small details that can maybe stop you thinking about the bigger picture of doing it.

Another possible tactic is to try to "reset" if any positions allow you to. Nothing as luxurious as chalking up nor shaking out, but something as brief as a final adjustment to have a hold perfectly, a clear glance at the next hold, and especially as deep a breath as you can fit in. This is again trying to take you away from the overall situation, and more into that moment, and resetting the focus on what you're doing next (and not what you've just done, nor how that affects your chances of success).

[mrjonathanr]

Speaking of Jerry, his advice in an interview on YT is to focus completely on accurately latching the next hold. Stops your mind running ahead. Worth a try?

[dr_botnik]

Some shit about music blah

Yeah that's interesting Mike! I too have had the "music" never thought about harnessing it on purpose, interesting that you have specific songs that work well too, an interesting reflection to read for sure!

Does anybody else get a little voice on an onsight that says "this is a bit easy for the grade" immediately before a crux/hard section? I've similarly learnt to harness this and, whenever I get it, have learnt its a bit of pattern recognition to suggest its about to get hard. I'll generally just concentrate on the next section to either the next bit of gear or next rest.

But yeah, any attempt to try to force my mind to be still has the opposite effect. I generally find having more on my "plate" from other life stress doesn't help so if you have any way of clearing some of that off puts you in a better place. Writing a journal/making a list/going for a run usually helps me clear my mind of other stuff. Then having friends I can relax around on the other end of the rope helps too. Guess these are more like precipitating factors, but I think they contribute to getting in the "zone"

[petejh]

I think maybe there are different 'flowy' mental states that we lump into the label 'flow state', and that they're triggered by different stimulus.

For e.g., I've experienced that state of effortless movement over hard climbing (for me) while redpointing something that up to that point had felt pretty desperate - I'd describe this as 'quiet mind' and 'flow state'. But then I've also experienced something very different to this (only once), an out of body experience where my vision and mind felt like they were outside of my body and I was 'watching myself' climb from somewhere up in the air and over to the right as if I was part of the sky, it was very distinctive and memorable. This was on a route that was potentially dangerous. I'd also call this 'quiet mind' and 'flow state' but it was very different to the redpointing flow state because I was onsighting and climbing really slowly. I've also experienced feelings I'd describe as 'flow' on easy cruisy climbing where there's little danger or physical challenge, just relaxation. This feels different again to the other two but still 'flow state', more like a happy lazy morning reading a book or something.

So maybe a perfect combination of certain type of stimulus with a certain mindset.


I get music in my head most days and it seems my brain likes to make links to situations. I've had 'learning to fly' and 'freefalling' while abseiling off routes before.

[cheque]