[Fiend]

It's deeply upsetting to see climbing going this way though; just another conveyor belt of performance induced misery, leaching the heart and soul from the participants and regurgitating repetitive "competition" in the name of money and mass entertainment.

All you (pointing around in general) Goal Climbers are guilty (or the root cause?!) of this, it's the natural extrapolation of the tail-wagging-dog number-chasing mentality!!

[petejh]

Not me, I gave up on my goals long ago.

[spidermonkey09]

As soon as they're released from the yolk of parental expectation / desperation they see the light 

Brilliant eggcorn there!

[teestub]

As soon as they're released from the yolk of parental expectation / desperation they see the light 

Brilliant eggcorn there!

I think Bradders was talking about how the parents are going to have egg of their face 😄

[Wellsy]

The progression to Olympic level sport has and will continue to change the sport of competition climbing out of all recognition from what we have known before, and many of these changes will not be pretty. They will almost all come about because of 'experts' who can smell money coming onto the sport.

Sounds ominous. What changes do you anticipate?

Administrators bringing their 'transferable skills' from other sports who are only in it for the money and reflected glory, abusive parents and coaches, PEDs, corrupt administration hand-in-glove with despotic regimes, money channeled to potential medal winning sports and athletes and away from the grass-roots. If other sports are anything to go by.

Abusive relationships in an immature competitive environment would certainly concern me a lot, yeah. Especially in the realm of eating disorders.

[mrjonathanr]

It's deeply upsetting to see climbing going this way though; just another conveyor belt of performance induced misery, leaching the heart and soul from the participants and regurgitating repetitive "competition" in the name of money and mass entertainment.

It’s not though, is it? Competition has always been a form of regulated sport, with all the arbitrariness that implies. If that appeals, go for it.

The cliffs are what they have always been, with gravity the only referee. They are out there for those who want to experience that.

The resemblance between the 2 activities is purely superficial.

Abusive relationships in an immature competitive environment would certainly concern me a lot, yeah. Especially in the realm of eating disorders.

Yes, that is a concern. Look at gymnastics.

[Kingy]

Just a sidenote, its yoke not yolk 

[Bradders]

As soon as they're released from the yolk of parental expectation / desperation they see the light 

Brilliant eggcorn there!

I think Bradders was talking about how the parents are going to have egg of their face 😄

Haha balls. Nice double meaning at least

[Bonjoy]

As the parent of a son who does okay in comps and climbs outside, I’m unimpressed but unsurprised by the lazy tropes casually thrown around about comp kids and parents. Believe it or not some kids do it because that’s what they want to and their parents support that (go ask one if they'd rather be sat under a cold skin eating rock next time you're at the wall). I’ve met a lot of comp kids and parents in the last few years, and they generally don’t fit the cliché. Those that do, don’t do very well in my experience.  Notably I’ve never met any who offer broad brush negative generalisations about outdoor climbers.
There’s a lot of reasons why young climbers tend to start indoor and comp focused these days and why most naturally move away from comps as they mature. Many go on to do other types of climbing. This is no more a failure or a waste than kids who play football at school not going on to be professional footballers.

[petejh]

Yeah but...



BITD Life Was So Simple: Jumpers for Goalposts

[Wellsy]

I think probably most young people in comps are mega psyched to be there and really grateful to have parents who support them with a not inconsiderable amount of time and money. I really wish when I was a kid I'd have had something similar that I loved and/or was supported in and even pushed a little. I regret that I wasn't

We do of course in a lot of sports have careful safeguarding procedures in place though because as was recently in the news re. Youth Swimming these abusive relationships can and do form even in sports with lots of time behind them spent thinking about it. Like those measures are there for a good reason! It would be foolish to discount that area as a potential concern in a sport that's growing from very small roots very rapidly. How many sports can really say the top priority is athlete wellbeing. That seems to be an element of Shauna's criticism after all.

[Bonjoy]

I think probably most young people in comps are mega psyched to be there and really grateful to have parents who support them with a not inconsiderable amount of time and money. I really wish when I was a kid I'd have had something similar that I loved and/or was supported in and even pushed a little. I regret that I wasn't

We do of course in a lot of sports have careful safeguarding procedures in place though because as was recently in the news re. Youth Swimming these abusive relationships can and do form even in sports with lots of time behind them spent thinking about it. Like those measures are there for a good reason! It would be foolish to discount that area as a potential concern in a sport that's growing from very small roots very rapidly. How many sports can really say the top priority is athlete wellbeing. That seems to be an element of Shauna's criticism after all.

Yes totally. From what I understand, this is an area the BMC are doing serious work on at the moment.

[User deactivated.]

It's deeply upsetting to see climbing going this way though; just another conveyor belt of performance induced misery, leaching the heart and soul from the participants and regurgitating repetitive "competition" in the name of money and mass entertainment.

All you (pointing around in general) Goal Climbers are guilty (or the root cause?!) of this, it's the natural extrapolation of the tail-wagging-dog number-chasing mentality!!

You wave the Goal Climbers flag a lot, but everyone's goal is to get to the top of the climb. Your top might be a soaring arete in the Dales but it's no more or less valid than matching the jug in a roadside limestone cave or topping the lead comp route.

Last time I checked you had your very own moonboard progress thread to help achieve your cranking goals. I welcome you with open (strong) arms to the Goal Climbers Collective

[Wellsy]

I think probably most young people in comps are mega psyched to be there and really grateful to have parents who support them with a not inconsiderable amount of time and money. I really wish when I was a kid I'd have had something similar that I loved and/or was supported in and even pushed a little. I regret that I wasn't

We do of course in a lot of sports have careful safeguarding procedures in place though because as was recently in the news re. Youth Swimming these abusive relationships can and do form even in sports with lots of time behind them spent thinking about it. Like those measures are there for a good reason! It would be foolish to discount that area as a potential concern in a sport that's growing from very small roots very rapidly. How many sports can really say the top priority is athlete wellbeing. That seems to be an element of Shauna's criticism after all.

Yes totally. From what I understand, this is an area the BMC are doing serious work on at the moment.

Good and positive to hear!

[Teaboy]

 money channeled to potential medal winning sports and athletes and away from the grass-roots.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed, the BMC already assigns as much of its income to GB Climbing as it does to access. Other than that I love comps and although there'll probably come a time they need to go their separate ways I'm pleased that, in the UK at least, there is still a lot of synergy between outdoor climbing and comps.

On the subject of Will Bosi, I think we all do understand that being good outdoors does not necessarily mean you’ll a good comp climber, but it was strongly implied that the reason for his non-inclusion was not performance related and that he did on in the trails. Also the UK lead comp team doesn't seem to have that much strength on depth, I'd have thought he warranted a place on the squad if he wanted one.

[crimpinainteasy]

The best rock climbers aren't the always the best comp climbers. And vice versa.
Comp climbing has suddenly got a lot more serious and the days of being the best climber outdoors and being able to rock up at a World Cup and win that too are long gone. Ondra proves this on a regular basis (not that fair - he does win some big comps, but on paper he should win all of them!)
Winning a qualification round where there is no pressure, and having the head to win a big final with the eyes of the TV viewing world on you are different games. It's much easier to climb when there's no pressure, but dealing with pressure is a huge part of comp climbing.
I think GB Climbing are backing dedicated comp athletes who are committed long term to comp climbing. They are looking to develop athletes for Olympic Games in 8 or 12 years time - not who's cranking now.
The progression to Olympic level sport has and will continue to change the sport of competition climbing out of all recognition from what we have known before, and many of these changes will not be pretty. They will almost all come about because of 'experts' who can smell money coming onto the sport.

In all fairness if guys like Tomoa, Kokoro, and Yoshiyuki actually spent more time bouldering outdoors they would easily be among the world's elite. Tomoa quite recently did a consensus v15 in 3 tries which is totally mind boggling. I'm sure if he actually dedicated 10+ sessions to a proj he could send the very hardest boulders in the world..

[mrjonathanr]

Good and positive to hear!

Nick Colton is the safeguarding officer at the BMC. Masses of experience, although I don’t know what his role re competitions is tbf

[jwi]

In all fairness if guys like Tomoa, Kokoro, and Yoshiyuki actually spent more time bouldering outdoors they would easily be among the world's elite. Tomoa quite recently did a consensus v15 in 3 tries which is totally mind boggling. I'm sure if he actually dedicated 10+ sessions to a proj he could send the very hardest boulders in the world..

But if he did dedicate a few weeks to an outdoor project, he would get worse at coordination jumps. That is why what Ondra is doing so impressive.

[yetix]

 money channeled to potential medal winning sports and athletes and away from the grass-roots.

I'm afraid that ship has sailed, the BMC already assigns as much of its income to GB Climbing as it does to access. Other than that I love comps and although there'll probably come a time they need to go their separate ways I'm pleased that, in the UK at least, there is still a lot of synergy between outdoor climbing and comps.

On the subject of Will Bosi, I think we all do understand that being good outdoors does not necessarily mean you’ll a good comp climber, but it was strongly implied that the reason for his non-inclusion was not performance related and that he did on in the trails. Also the UK lead comp team doesn't seem to have that much strength on depth, I'd have thought he warranted a place on the squad if he wanted one.

I was led to believe that this funding primarily came from sport England etc and covered most if not all of these costs and that sport England had defined where this funding went.

[El Mocho]

As the parent of a son who does okay in comps...

To add to Bonjoys post, and also as I was one of the "ex -British champs who stopped comps" or whatever exactly JB said...

I did my first comp age 11 or so (prob 1990ish) and loved it. Was a local northern league, vickers, Parry, Glenn Sutcliffe, etc etc were there. I had been trad climbing outside regularly for 3 or so years (and a few years more casually before that) but had only just started lead climbing on trad. I enjoyed the whole scene and events, watching other climbers, the music (Queen), trying the routes and the whole vibe seemed supportive and fun. I tried to enter the national comp in Birmingham but there was no youth category, the following year I tried to enter again and was told "we've created a youth category (under 18) just for you" so to a small degree I claim to be responsible for the entire youth comp scene!

After moving down south I found the comps a really good way to keep up fitness over the winter, although not overly competitive it did provide motivation to keep going to the wall and trying hard. I also enjoyed meeting and climbing with the other young climbers in the comps - there were far fewer kids climbing then than now. Andy Early and Cowboyhat the first few years, people like Leo, Hocking etc in later years.

I was lucky enough to get on the junior and senior team and get funded to travel to international comps, had a great time, met loads of great climbers (I should add the photo Patxi sent me the other day (Chris says hi etc) showing the results from his first ever comp where I placed about 10 places above him!). The whole scene was how you would imagine '90s climbing to be - lycra and getting pissed. On international comps we were 'banned' from going drinking until we were knocked out (which normally happened the first day) except Vickers who was a) encouraged to drink as it improved his performance and b) actually made it past the qualification day.

I got kicked off the team on 2 occasions - I think officially I was encouraged to take a break from the team - due to not taking it seriously, something to do with missing a training weekend when I was in Pembroke, going out to Millstone on the evening after another training session - I was saving myself during the day, but I did do London Wall and White Wall that evening so worth it in my mind.

I stopped competing when I went to Uni in Leeds. I suddenly had loads of great outdoor climbing to do in the winter and a bunch of cool folk who I lived with to chat about climbing, hang out with and get pissed/fucked up with. I always preferred outdoor climbing so it wasn't due to the shitness of the comp scene/parental pressure that made me stop.

I'm not really sure if I have much of a point to make but I would maybe echo Percys point that it's not always the best outdoor climbers who make the best comp climbers and this is likely getting to be more and more the case and also the fact that I think it's fair for the BMC to focus on people who are committed to comps (I've no idea how committed Will/Aiden are, they do obv climb outside a bunch) I was essentially a total waste of money for the BMC comps, I had the ability to repeatedly make the team but never cared enough to progress to an international level and basically dropped out once I got a better offer i.e. go climbing outide all the time.

[Bonjoy]

Maybe a waste of money in terms of sustained comp results, but it sounds like it was formative in your climbing life which is significant on various levels and an inspiration to many. Many would consider it BMC money well spent, whatever the intended purpose. I think regardless of how narrow and targeted comp support becomes, it will keep producing collateral positives for individuals and the broader world of climbing, even if the system is trying its utmost to produce one result and one result alone.

[shark]

I was led to believe that this funding primarily came from sport England etc and covered most if not all of these costs and that sport England had defined where this funding went.

Yes there is a lot of funding but the amount the BMC put into GB Climbing for 2020 above and beyond the grants was similar to the spend on access and conservation

There are useful pie charts in the annual reports showing where the BMC spends its money.

Comps work is generally expensive and access is generally cheap. Both are supported by unpaid volunteers.

[Teaboy]

Comps work is generally expensive and access is generally cheap.

Access is very well served by the BMC but this idea that it only needs a finite amount of money and therefore we should give as much as we can to GB Climbing seems a bit bogus. There is always more that could be done and it is a bit concerning that in 2020 when most comps were cancelled and our outdoor resources were under unprecedented strain GB Climbing still took as much cash from the BMC coffers as Access.

[shark]

Good and positive to hear!

Nick Colton is the safeguarding officer at the BMC. Masses of experience, although I don’t know what his role re competitions is tbf

Not clear as he is down under “Sport and Community Development” in the staff list rather than “GB Climbing” which is meant to be a segregated and independent department. Certainly when I was there he took a leading role with GB Climbing in his position as Deputy CEO and the Comps Officer reported to him.

[BRidal]

Thought I'd clear this all up. Will has left GB climbing and gone to Czech to downgrade all of Ondra's routes and fabricate a beef between them. He's got the inside scoop that Netflix is starting production of 'climb to survive' and is ensuring he's got a good story arc to be one of the main characters. It will be centered around a new world series in which athletes compete for brands instead of countries. Shauna will be the over-caffeinated sugary drink company crew chief and so is trash talking existing federations to win favour and pillage the best athletes for her team. The IFSC can see the ship sinking so have cashed in the livestream rights for a quick buck whilst they still can.