[Fultonius]

Deleted after further reading....

[danm]

Interesting that Putin's list of demands to be met before he stops his forces slaughtering innocent civilians has dialled back and he is now no longer demanding the "denazification" of Ukraine. That means he has already admitted that he cannot achieve one of his main strategic goals of forcing a regime change in Ukraine and installing a puppet government.

Personally if I was the Ukrainian government, I'd agree to Crimea becoming officially part of Russia, and let go Donetsk and Luhansk as I don't think there is any chance they could win them back militarily. That would give Putin an acceptable off ramp, potentially. That leaves joining the EU and NATO. I think it might be possible to keep this as an option if concessions to Russian security are given, i.e an agreement to not have certain types of weapons system deployed in Ukraine, perhaps with a counter-offer in return.

Russia has already lost this war in terms of achieving their strategic objectives, the aim now must be to limit the physical damage to Ukraine and its people whilst some kind of agreement is worked out.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I just think there's so much polarizing bullshit, which doesn't help the situation in the least.

I don't understand how anyone thinks that's the same as ignoring the desperate plight of those on the receiving end.
Ignoring any complicity in the situation is also an act of denial.

Are there options available, like withdrawing certain strategic NATO positions? - anything that might make a ceasefire more achievable.

Conflict ends up with people seeking gratification for their own grievances. Yes, I do believe we're in a position to try to open some dialogue along the lines that Putin sought.

Danm has also posted the idea of certain concessions.

Just focusing on the "Evil" - and we're quick to deny our own - prevents us from opening the dialogue that may lead to less atrocities further down the road. It's why the Good Friday agreement was such an achievement.

If you can't understand your enemy, you are losing.

As regards Putin seeking better relations with the EU and NATO, the media was full of it - unless anyone had their earplugs in.

I also do think that if NATO was serious about changing it's philosophy, then it might allow consideration of different forms of intervention - and support for Zelensky and the people he loves and makes such a desperate plea for.

Just to discount how we arrived here - and it's similarities with Georgia is absurd.
Take the right action but not out of hate and grievance. Do what is necessary and what is best.

[seankenny]

As regards Putin seeking better relations with the EU and NATO, the media was full of it - unless anyone had their earplugs in.

I clearly had my earplugs in, so please help me out here with some examples. I can’t remember any so not sure what to look for, but since they were in the media it’ll be but the work of a jiffy to post some links.

[Oldmanmatt]

Dude, “withdrawing certain NATO positions”?
What, give Russia Poland? Lithuania? Why not Germany?
This isn’t a diplomatic crisis, it is a hostile attack on a sovereign nation, with a threat of further moves west in the future. It doesn’t get more polarised than that.
Seriously, give now, what do you think he’ll ask for next? Thousands of Russians have been rounded up and imprisoned for simply knowing what’s really happening. The Moscow police are stopping people at random on the street to search their phones.
All the angst in the world isn’t going to make the slightest dent in Putin’s delusions. Military reality and the prospect a protracted conflict that he can’t hide from his own people, that will shake him.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

As regards Putin seeking better relations with the EU and NATO, the media was full of it - unless anyone had their earplugs in.

I clearly had my earplugs in, so please help me out here with some examples. I can’t remember any so not sure what to look for, but since they were in the media it’ll be but the work of a jiffy to post some links.

Or you could just have a look yourself Sean.

From OMM:
"This isn’t a diplomatic crisis.." - all war is a diplomatic crisis.


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/02/a-diplomatic-solution-to-the-war-in-ukraine/

[petejh]

I find myself wondering how you can so emphatically want to understand and sympathise with Russia's grievances without displaying equal effort to understand and sympathise with the west's and Ukraine's grievances. It's bizarre - if anyone has a polarized view on this thread DT it might actually be you, although I believe you're well intended. 
You might have me labelled a certain way (ex-soldier etc.) but I don't think the west is faultless, and as far as I can tell nor does anyone else posting on this thread. And I certainly don't think of 'others' as enemies or think that conflict is a good thing. And just as I wasn't blind or unsympathetic to Irish Nationalists' legitimate grievances in NI, or Serbian nationalists' legitimate grievances in Bosnia, I'm not blind to Russia's grievances over eastern Ukraine or Russia feeling militarily threatened by NATO close to its borders. However paranoid and unfounded that is (as pointed out NATO could destroy Russia before midnight tonight from thousands of miles away, likewise Russia could destroy us all without needing to move an inch into Ukraine). It makes *zero* difference militarily to have troops or missiles in Poland or Ukraine. That complaint is all about posture, ideology and public image.
If Ukrainians are prepared to fight for their chance to live in a liberal democracy it's because they can see it's a much better life than living in an autocracy ruled by a vicious ideologue who kills his enemies and supresses any dissent, and whose theft from the population makes the UK conservatives look like a model of redistribution of wealth to the poor.
The only chance Ukrainians have of not ending up under in that place is to fight back. They didn't chose that situation it was forced on them by Putin. Your stance, if adopted by the west, would deny Ukrainians any chance of their country developing the way they wanted and would consign them to living under Putin's rule. And for what? - a sensitivity on your part to labelling people 'good' or 'bad'.

[danm]

As regards Putin seeking better relations with the EU and NATO, the media was full of it - unless anyone had their earplugs in.

I clearly had my earplugs in, so please help me out here with some examples. I can’t remember any so not sure what to look for, but since they were in the media it’ll be but the work of a jiffy to post some links.

Or you could just have a look yourself Sean.

From OMM:
"This isn’t a diplomatic crisis.." - all war is a diplomatic crisis.


https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/europpblog/2022/03/02/a-diplomatic-solution-to-the-war-in-ukraine/

Even on a skim read that blog has some serious contradictions in it. On the one hand, it says Russians and Ukrainians are one people, on the other, that Ukraine was cobbled together by Stalin and has no coherent identity. If they are one people....

If I'm honest it reads like it was written by an apologist for Putin at worst, and at best it smacks of victim blaming.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

"After 1945, the West remembered that the Treaty of Versailles produced Hitler, and acted more generously towards the defeated. After the break-up of the Soviet Union, the West ignored the Versailles lesson."

From the article in my previous point.

The exact point I made previously - in the politics thread IIRC.

[joel182]

Even on a skim read that blog has some serious contradictions in it. On the one hand, it says Russians and Ukrainians are one people, on the other, that Ukraine was cobbled together by Stalin and has no coherent identity. If they are one people....

If I'm honest it reads like it was written by an apologist for Putin at worst, and at best it smacks of victim blaming.

It's utterly hilarious if you have spoken with literally one young Ukrainian who will most likely tell you something like "I learnt to speak Russian so I could be international, and I would often speak Russian with my friends".

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I find myself wondering how you can so emphatically want to understand and sympathise with Russia's grievances without displaying equal effort to understand and sympathise with the west's and Ukraine's grievances.

What a complete nonsense statement that is!! 

I feel greatly for the position the Ukrainians are in, and Zelensky. That's obvious from my own posts.

It's not a zero-sum game to try to understand the respective parties' interests and grievances.
If you must only label Putin "Bad", then you've reached the level of irrationality you project onto him - unless of course you lack the ability to differentiate between the labels you apply and the possible action.


The guy's kind of an old man now, so I'm sure that disqualifies the sentiment, although he didn't reside in Nether Edge, so there's something going for him:

“If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.”

Sun Tzu a couple of weeks ago. Can't remember.

Regarding the article referenced above, as with anything, there will be significant parts that "ring true" or have even been shown to be correct. There will be errors and inconsistencies - unlike The West of course, who I appreciate lacks these - and there will be claims that are also simply wrong (even if not yet shown to be).

Oh, and then there will be how we choose to interpret it.

[joel182]

That you cannot see that Putin is evil makes you utterly unserious on this topic.

[petejh]

I feel greatly for the position the Ukrainians are in, and Zelensky. That's obvious from my own posts.

OK fair enough I'd adjust that - you do acknowledge* Ukraine's plight. But your stance devalues their agency. It's bordering on impossible to take you seriously.




* although you don't mention 'the west' in your sentence - perhaps they're too guilty of provoking Russia for you?

[DAVETHOMAS90]

I feel greatly for the position the Ukrainians are in, and Zelensky. That's obvious from my own posts.

OK fair enough I'd adjust that - you do acknowledge* Ukraine's plight. But your stance devalues their agency. It's bordering on impossible to take you seriously.

 



* although you don't mention 'the west' in your sentence - perhaps they're too guilty of provoking Russia for you?

Interpret it however you want to Pete for God's sake.

"But your stance devalues their agency" - in what possible way?

We're always in a position of considering our agency and action - with both "good/bad" consequences.

It's quite interesting to consider how Putin views Ukraine with respect to Russian Unionism - which is quite different to that of the unionism of the UK for instance. We project our own sense of national identity - which is always shifting of course anyway - onto other states, in this case Russia, when they are quite different.

Understanding how they see things is important and necessary if we are going to try to achieve some peace.

Unfortunately, much of what NATO declares and still propagandises in it's own media, is a version of "peace" which is of the keep the wolf from the door nature - which is of course not peace at all.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

That you cannot see that Putin is evil makes you utterly unserious on this topic.

My apologies Joel. I hadn't understood that that was what this thread was about.

Props to you 

[seankenny]

Or you could just have a look yourself Sean.

It really doesn’t work like this. If you make an argument the onus is on you to bring some evidence to the table. That’s how discussion works. As it is you’re just looking shifty. All these questions with no answers, all these gnomic pronouncements. It’s just Dan Mark 2. David Danovich, maybe.

As for the war, what Pete said in his long post above, with this added: I think Russia is great. I went once and had a fantastic time. Hung out in Moscow with my very Russophile friend, saw Lenin, art galleries, went clubbing. Watched burly men in a bar drinking tequila with the elements of the shot spread across a naked woman. (It was a Tuesday evening.) Went trekking in Altai with a bunch of Russians I met accidentally in the airport in Barnaul, spent a fortnight with them up in the hills, hiking and drinking and going to the little banya. Me and twenty Russians aged 18 to 60, all beating the shit out of each other with birch sticks and jumping in the lake. Walking out as the first snows of winter fell.

I’d always wanted to do another trip, to St Petersburg and then travel down to Tolstoy’s estate and maybe on to the south where Chekhov was from, maybe even go in the winter, take the train across those vast spaces. And of course now I won’t be able to do that, not for years and you never know, perhaps not even in my lifetime. That’s really sad. But still I support these sanctions because Russia is also a mafia state run by a horrendous mobster, a cruel man who commits evil acts on a massive scale, again and again and again. Just don’t tell me he makes the trains run on time.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep22141?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Really interesting article on Russian National Identity and the Russia Ukraine Crisis.
I think it's really important to think about the different ways in which The West and Putin view the action.

Well worth a read. I understand that even suggesting that will brand me an apologist. 

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Or you could just have a look yourself Sean.

It really doesn’t work like this. If you make an argument the onus is on you to bring some evidence to the table. That’s how discussion works. As it is you’re just looking shifty. All these questions with no answers, all these gnomic pronouncements. It’s just Dan Mark 2. David Danovich, maybe.

I'm sorry Sean, but this isn't a "discussion" between two people. You may not appreciate it, but there are several others who have posted, and who I've tried to reply to. Wait your turn please   

It's quite a slanging match isn't it? With various people even making their own claims of what the thread is about.
Perhaps I wasn't allowed to reply to your question in this "Putin is Evil" thread.

I've been demonstrating my lack of sympathy for the Ukrainians, by going out to freely buy food to cook and eat.

Re your question, there was quite a lot of discussion about what it meant to be European at the time - including that it was perhaps a claim that Russia could make more than us. I'll try to look later. It's something I want to have more of a read about.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

It’s just Dan Mark 2. David Danovich, maybe.

No this isn't "a discussion" at all.

What typically happens with these things, is that people group together in an attempt to dominate what it's about, and to exclude others who don't agree. It's territorial, in the way that wars are territorial. Being territorial is about identity and exclusion, and as much as we argue in that way, we are not helping work towards any resolution.

I've tried to provide references to some degree, that people can consider themselves. A forum is an opportunity to express a view, to contribute. It's not a private club.

Dan was on the receiving end of a great deal of hostility. He was provocative too of course, but the instinct was to exclude him. It's interesting to think about the way that the two apparent opposites of Fascism and Communism can be viewed.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Interesting to read about NATO's consideration of Russia's membership.

On page 23 of 48.

«Russia is a part of European culture, and I can not imagine my own country
existing apart from Europe, apart from the so called, as we often say, «civilised world»… It is
harmful for Russia to regard NATO as an enemy»10

https://www.nato.int/acad/fellow/98-00/davydov.pdf

Focusing too much on Putin, takes us away from thinking about the support there was for Gorbachev and what he tried to achieve (and the opposition to it too, of course). I find it incredible that we don't speak about Gorbachev more now. I do remember how much of a disaster it seemed at the time when he resigned.

I'm just posting this as a reference. The dialogue between "The West/NATO/EU" was something I find it incredible we've forgotten.

[mrjonathanr]

Petition to waive visa requirements for UK for Ukraine passport holders

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/609530

It’s easy, just sign it.

[mrjonathanr]

Some of the comments above I find disheartening, despite sympathising with the sense of outrage. I think it’s misguided, however.

Firstly, this is a forum for discussion; there should not be a party line contributors have to adopt. PJH’s post about a diversity of sources being the best way to triangulate your own understanding is spot on, it is what is great about the forum. Nor does equivalence with Dan’s gobbledook stand up as Dave’s posts, although not always easy to read, are not all evasive nonsense.

To me the term evil brings clarity: it’s obvious Putin has no moral red lines to check his strategy.  I have not read a post from Dave arguing that Putin isn’t evil; rather that the word risks obscuring more than it illuminates. We can agree to differ, but he has a right to say that.

In trying to argue a nuanced understanding of the motivations and perceptions of the other side is preferable to rushing to a fixed view of how to frame the conflict, I doubt you’d find anyone in the Pentagon who would disagree.

I don’t see that line of argument as being a relativist apology for Russian atrocities, though some have concluded it smacks of one. I’d denounce it if I thought that were the case.

Maybe having known Dave a long time I find it easier to interpret his comments for that reason. Whatever, I’d prefer the topic returned to the crisis in Ukraine, rather than irrelevant doldrums about the phrasing of one person’s posts.

[Duma]

Well said JR

[spidermonkey09]

That's a good and laudable post JR, but it does cut both ways.

Every poster I've read has been trying to have a discussion and been met with a seemingly wilful refusal from Dave to either speak with any clarity or provide any evidence. Hardly surprising people get wound up!

 All that said, I do agree that a return to the topic would be preferable, and that it's a forum for discussion.

[spidermonkey09]

https://www.jstor.org/stable/resrep22141?seq=1#metadata_info_tab_contents

Really interesting article on Russian National Identity and the Russia Ukraine Crisis.
I think it's really important to think about the different ways in which The West and Putin view the action.

Well worth a read. I understand that even suggesting that will brand me an apologist. 

This is a decent read, and makes sense. The problem I have is that it's one thing to understand Putins view of Ukraine as a subsidiary of the "Russian world", as not a proper country, but this has been known for some time. One can understand Putins view and also think that his view makes absolutely no sense, and reads as if the last 50 years of history didn't happen. Given that I find it hard to commit too much energy to trying to understand a position which is so palpably wrong and out of step with the rest of the world, most importantly with Ukraines sense of itself.