[mrjonathanr]

Belatedly, I have become more interested in this. Here's Alex's pdf and a few links I found helpful:
https://www.trainingbeta.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/1.-Alex-Barrows-Training-Doc-V2-for-training-beta.pdf

https://www.thesustainabletrainingmethod.com/tstm-blog/2018/8/28/energy-systems-survive-thrive-perform
This is the first of 5 blogposts. I found reading them as a set helped to understand how energy is produced in muscle.
No 5:  https://www.thesustainabletrainingmethod.com/tstm-blog/2018/9/28/energy-systems-part-5-aerobic-kerbs-cycle-metabolic-flexibility

Tom and Ollie's site:
https://my.crimpd.com/workouts

My end goal is getting on the sharp end of some difficult (for me) trad and knowing there's something in reserve when I'm gripped  And that means building capacity over a good length of time.  I get the lattice stuff and the methods in that section of their site, but there's so much knowledge and experience on ukb I wanted to put a question out there:

What would people recommend as a way of training Anaerobic Capacity? Especially the short, powerful end? Ideally using a bouldering wall or even better, a board. In other words, what do people find really worked for them?


Thanks

[devonshirepiemuncher]

Laddering  up and down on a set of the same sized holds for 30 moves on a 30  degree board (feet on) worked for me

As you get fitter reduce the rest time until you can rest for less time than it takes to do the 30 moves

Once i could do 20 sets with the same rest time as work time I made a slightly smaller set of holds and started again

I had 8 rungs with about a foot inbetween them , skipping rungs also was good as a switch up but i could never do many sets in a row doing this as you are doing a lot more climbing for 30 moves

Managed to build enough power endurance to onsight some soft 7b sport routes with 4 months of doing this twice weekly

[Stu Littlefair]

Basic principles for ancap training:

1) climbing time about the same as rest time
2) around 1.5-2 mins duration
3) hard enough to (not quite) fail on last rep of last set.

So something that’s worked really well for me in the past is to set a 15 move Boulder problem on a steep board and do 4 reps with ~2 mins rest. This is one set.

3-4 sets, with 5-6 mins between sets.

But basically anything that hits the principles above.

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks for the replies, both.

Devonshire, that sounds like quite a beasting, but possibly overlapping aerobic power? ie the ability to keep going through high levels of lactate. Did your 30 moves take over 90 seconds to do? I guess you got faster too?

Stu, that's basically what I have been doing of late.

Logically, from what I get of the literature, rest times should be much longer, as the aerobic pathways won't have fully converted lactate back into pyruvate and nad+ to allow the glycolytic pathway to fully recover in that amount of time
ie it seems like rest times should be significantly  longer than work times if anaerobic capacity is to be properly trained and by longer, I mean 4x, 6x, or 8x longer than work periods

Yet knowledgeable people seem to prefer to create sets with insufficient recovery between reps and better recovery between sets. That would seem to overlap with creating a tolerance for lactate (or rather H+ in the cells).

Obviously experience trumps half-arsed understanding- which is why I asked!

[Duma]

Stu, so your 15 move boulder was taking you over 90 sec to climb? This seems really slow, even for shark.

[abarro81]

Basic principles for ancap training:

1) climbing time about the same as rest time
2) around 1.5-2 mins duration
3) hard enough to (not quite) fail on last rep of last set.

So something that’s worked really well for me in the past is to set a 15 move Boulder problem on a steep board and do 4 reps with ~2 mins rest. This is one set.

3-4 sets, with 5-6 mins between sets.

But basically anything that hits the principles above.

I don't understand what you've written at all here Stu, since 15 move problems inside don't usually take 1.5-2 min, that time length sounds way longer than what I (and I'd assumed you) do for ancap, and your rest time sounds really short. Your principles sound v different to what I do but your session sounds v similar (I use a 3 min interval timer, normally about 45s climb and 2.15 rest, give or take). Have I misunderstood what you meant or have you changed format or started to climb slow?

I would not describe what Devonshire is doing as an cap at all really. Unclear to me if this is simply an issue of nomenclature.

My fave is long boulders similar to Stu. Also like boulder tripples - 3 boulders (~6 moves each); I use on-the-minute but think lattice do 1 min rest so more like a 1.20 interval timer. Rest maybe 3-5 min between sets. Think it's on crimpd app. This is a bit more strengthy so fits well with the short and powerful end IMO. Also since it only needs short up problems it's v easy to reuse problems you already have made up and know

[Fultonius]

Whatever you do Jonathan, take it easy to begin with and get plenty of recovery rest after your session. I kicked up the gear of AnCap (15-18 moves, 2-4x rest) and it started to fry my elbows / brachialis/brachioradialis pretty quickly.

Anyone done AnCap on the lead wall?  I was trying to use a project level route, split into 3 sections (25m wall) and just gunning for the 15-18 move length, with decent length hangs on the rope between sections.

Oh yeah, forgot to ask. All you seasoned energy systems / periodised climbers - how badly does your route climbing ability usually drop off in the middle of a longer AnCap block?

I.e. say you peak at, f8a onsight level but halfway through an 14 week AnCap block (with lots of strength work but not a lot of aero), would you expect to drop down to f7c level, or worse? 7b+? 

My peak form just now is around the f7b o/s level and I'm looking to up that to f7c, but had a session (after 2 weeks no climbing due to tweaked wrist in a silly fall walking back from a winter route..)  but I got pretty shut down on a f7a+ at ratho on Friday, and one of the f6cs felt pretty hard!

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Alex, that fits more with what I’d understood. What I have been doing is 4 reps of 40seconds climbing (approx 15 moves) with 5 mins between sets.

Still don’t get why each rest between reps would not be longer, with harder moves on the reps.

Alasdair- cheers, I’ll heed that, especially since my elbows make Michael Owen look like Iron Man

[Fultonius]

Thanks Alex, that fits more with what I’d understood. What I have been doing is 4 reps of 40seconds climbing (approx 15 moves) with 5 mins between sets.

Still don’t get why each rest between reps would not be longer, with harder moves on the reps.

Alasdair- cheers, I’ll heed that, especially since my elbows make Michael Owen look like Iron Man

I wonder if it's just the pure practicality of the session length and boredom of doing such long rests?  Might be slightly less optimal but makes it a more manageable session length? And as you say, the slight cumulative fatigue works a bit of your lactic tolerance too?

[mrjonathanr]

My peak form just now is around the f7b o/s level and I'm looking to up that to f7c, but had a session (after 2 weeks no climbing due to tweaked wrist in a silly fall walking back from a winter route..)  but I got pretty shut down on a f7a+ at ratho on Friday, and one of the f6cs felt pretty hard!

I think Alex refers to this in his pdf. btw, I used to do a fair amount of sport climbing especially onsighting, but that was a long time ago and that fitness came from just climbing. So my thoughts here are more theory than practice.

My understanding is that after 45s anaerobic respiration starts to wane and you depend increasingly (and after 120s totally) on aerobic energy systems ie the krebs cycle. (obviously this is concurrent with anaerobic respiration briefly providing power at a faster rate when needed. Aerobic energy production only stops when you are dead) So the aerobic system provides both energy for work and the molecules that will allow the the anaerobic system to resume. So if your aerobic capacity is mediocre, after pulling really hard for 90s+, you are not going to be able to recover.

[devonshirepiemuncher]

I am no expert at training by any means but it really worked for me

Each 30 moves would take 40 seconds ish

The first 5 sets would really be quite easy i guess,  then the next 5 would be a building level of feeling Less recovered between each set, next 5 i would be having to try a lot harder ,feeling a level of difficulty to keep hands closed on the rungs and the last 5 everything is going wrong, core failing a bit ,powered down, wooden forearms ,elbows out etc

Always found it funny that my footwork got  so much slopier as the fatigue in my forearms grew , which i blame on core failing

I thought i was working on power endurance as the rests were so short but i am probably wrong, certainly was brilliant when needing to power through sport cruxes  when pumped

[Duma]

I would not describe what Devonshire is doing as an cap at all really. Unclear to me if this is simply an issue of nomenclature.

Sounds like what you call aero pow?

[mrjonathanr]

^^that is what i would suggest.

I thought i was working on power endurance as the rests were so short but i am probably wrong, certainly was brilliant when needing to power through sport cruxes  when pumped

Sounds like a very effective way to build a pump Devonshire; I am glad it worked for you. I don't see how it can be anaerobic capacity because the rests are short; they would need to be fairly long, to deal with the lactate produced and reboot the anaerobic system. To me it sounds like you were digging deep into aerobic systems and boosting your capacity to work with lactate levels. Very important, but not anaerobic.

[Stu Littlefair]

Perhaps I’m over egging the climb time; but a 15 move problem will take at least a minute for me on a board, and I usually do nearer 20 moves. My rest is definitely of the order of climb time though, perhaps ~30s or so longer. I’m certainly not resting 3x the climbing time. Maybe twice the climb time.

Plenty of other sports recommend sessions more along the lines of what Mrjonathanjr is suggesting, 45s all-out efforts with 4-5 minutes rest to allow full recovery of the glycolitic system. That's what I do in my peak phase though (anpow).

What I do in the base phase (ancap) is more like what cyclists do with hill sprints, where the intensity is lower and the duration longer. You’re not looking to max out the glycolitic system with each rep here, and that’s why the rest is shorter: partial recovery each rep with the aim of draining the glycolitic tank each set. Then ~5 mins rest to allow nearly full recovery and off we go again.

[Stu Littlefair]

My understanding is that after 45s anaerobic respiration starts to wane and you depend increasingly (and after 120s totally) on aerobic energy systems ie the krebs cycle.

This depends massively on the intensity of the exercise.

[Stu Littlefair]

Note also that the standard advice is a 1:2 climb:rest ratio for ancap, so perhaps my initial advice was just bollocks. Certainly what I do is closer to 1:2 than 1:1.

BTW: if you want to read about how the cyclists do this, this blog post is a pretty good summary.

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/blog/how-to-target-the-best-power-and-adaptation-using-optimized-intervals/

Our ancap is the same as their “Functional Reserve Capacity  (FRC)” training. Notice how they advise two different interval sessions for this training, like the ancap/anpow split I describe above.

[mrjonathanr]

Will have a look, thanks.

[MischaHY]

I'm currently doing a block of strength and ancap. 2 max board sessions, 2 ancap sessions and one aerocap for maintenance.

My ancap sessions are either long boulders (12-15 moves) as Stu mentions or the 'Boulder Triples' session from Crimpd which has you doing 3 laps of 6-8 moves at flash grade with 1 min rest between, followed by 3 mins rest. 6 sets overall.

Completely agree with previous mentions that anything like what Devonshire describes isn't ancap but rather aeropow. Very useful (sounds like a board version of foot-on campus) but definitely more what you would do for ~4 weeks to peak for a trip or project after a longer base training phase. Personally though I prefer a mix of training aeropow on actual circuits and some FoC because it's a) more fun and b) means you maintain good form and technique when really pumped. People often say something like 'but I can go harder if I am not focusing on technique', which I think is the wrong way to look at it seeing as the effort you can sustain whilst maintaining technique is the actual limit you can sustain in reality so you may as well train these two together.

Hope this is useful.
 

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Mischa, that is helpful. 2 hard boulders and 2 hard a cap sessions weekly? That sounds brutal. A max of 3 hard sessions per week for me with an easy endurance session. That’s working round family, job and middle aged recovery. My recent training so far has been:

1) long boulders ~15 moves/45s duration. x4 reps per set. 2 mins rest between reps, 5 mins rest between sets.

2) short boulders ~6-8 moves:
2a) 6 sets of 3, 30s rest between reps and 5 mins rest between sets.
2b) 3 sets of 6, 1min rest between reps, 5 mins rest between sets

So that seems similar to what others are doing too. The idea is to do 16 weeks then 8 weeks of power based training ie reducing rests so working into lactate and pump. Started after Xmas. Naively I would think the best way to stimulate the glycolysis system is stress it fully, allow sufficient recovery, rinse and repeat. However, most training methodologies don't leave sufficient recovery between reps. Or is that the point?

That training peaks article talks about the best dose-response not matching the performance times exactly. So is it the standard intervals people are already using, or would something better be achievable?

Another question. The cycling methods are based around Functional Power Threshold. This is a measure of average top output over 45-60 mins (albeit measured in a 20 minute burst). This has nothing to with the timings of most boulders or sport routes, so what is the climbing equivalent measure? Seems like the FRC training is based on a very different baseline output to climbing. Any thoughts Stu? Thanks.

[Stu Littlefair]

My recent training so far has been:

1) long boulders ~15 moves/45s duration. x4 reps per set. 2 mins rest between reps, 5 mins rest between sets.

2) short boulders ~6-8 moves:
2a) 6 sets of 3, 30s rest between reps and 5 mins rest between sets.
2b) 3 sets of 6, 1min rest between reps, 5 mins rest between sets

Sounds about right to me. I wouldn't do more than 2x ancap sessions a week; I can't recover enough to do more. Probably could when I was 20, but then I could do a lot of things when I was 20 that I can't now.

Naively I would think the best way to stimulate the glycolysis system is stress it fully, allow sufficient recovery, rinse and repeat. However, most training methodologies don't leave sufficient recovery between reps. Or is that the point?

Stressing the system as hard as possible isn't necessarily the best way of training it, otherwise (for example) we'd just do aeropow and not aerocap/arc! I think most exercises aim to go to (near) failure but not necessarily per-rep. If you went to failure each rep you'd need long rests, but not so if you aim to approach failure each set.

Another question. The cycling methods are based around Functional Power Threshold. This is a measure of average top output over 45-60 mins (albeit measured in a 20 minute burst). This has nothing to with the timings of most boulders or sport routes, so what is the climbing equivalent measure?

[edit: what follows is totally OTT geekery and is just me musing for fun. If you just want to know what to do for ancap training I strongly advise ignoring it]

The climbing equivalent of FTP would be our equivalent of critical power, which is Dave Giles' critical force. It's not exactly the same thing, but fundamentally, they're both attempts to measure the maximum amount of effort that can be sustained long term, and primarily depend on aerobic ability.

Where I think there is a lot of scope to improve climbing training is that at the moment, most workouts seem based on a % of max strength (for the fingerboard) or "standard" durations for intervals (i.e your 45s ancap intervals).

But an aerobic workout should have an intensity based on your critical force, not your max strength, and some % of critical force/FTP is not a sensible way to calculate the intensity/duration of an ancap workout.

The approach some cycling coaches take is to try and construct a "power-duration" curve. The duration managed at a given power output should closely follow a standard curve, predicted by the critical force/power model. However, when you measure real people you find that there are durations/intensities where they underperform. The basic idea is to target these areas in training.

In a climbing context measuring a power-duration curve would involve something like doing 7:3 repeaters to failure with a range of added weights. The duration you manage at each particular added weight is recorded and compared the expectation from a critical force model. Areas where you do badly are emphasised in training.

This makes a lot of sense to me, but I haven't come up with a way of gathering the data that is easy enough to make it worthwhile. But imagine for a second you had someone who wanted to spend a whole week measuring time to failure when dead hanging, and they came up with the following results:

Weight added   |  Duration Managed | Expected Duration
               10 kg | 2:20                         | 2:10
               15 kg | 1:00                         | 1:25
               20 kg | 1:05                         | 1:05
               30 kg | 0:50                         | 0:43
               40 kg | 0:30                         | 0:32

This climber "underperforms" in efforts just over 1 minute, but does OK at 45s efforts. Arguably, they'd be better off doing their ancap on longer circuits that take 1:00-1:20 rather than the "standard" 15 move circuits.

[Paul B]

Another question. The cycling methods are based around Functional Power Threshold. This is a measure of average top output over 45-60 mins (albeit measured in a 20 minute burst). This has nothing to with the timings of most boulders or sport routes, so what is the climbing equivalent measure? Seems like the FRC training is based on a very different baseline output to climbing. Any thoughts Stu? Thanks.

Slight pedantry but FTP is an hour duration. There are shortcut tests to predict this (i.e. 20mins or a ramp test) which are less hassle if you don't quite pitch it right (or that's what I understand it as anyhow).

Stu - Are you referring to 4DP or if not do you have a link for the power duration curve? I remember getting shouted down a bit when I tried to suggest aiming for a % of CF wasn't practical (or measurable on anything but a rung) for climbing! 

[Rocksteady]

Apologies for this slight deviation from topic but hopefully will turn out helpful - I'm always wondering what the different training types actually do for your climbing. I read all the literature etc but I find it hard to translate lactate production and ATP glycosis etc into actual performance.

Is the following about right?

ARCing - builds forearm structures that enable longer climbing without pump
Aerocap - improves your ability to climb without pump i.e. raises the level you can climb to before getting pumped. Also good for improving ability to recover from pump at rests and overall training capacity / tolerance and session recovery.

Ancap - improves your ability to climb near your limit without getting powered out

Aeropow - improves your ability to tolerate pump i.e. climb hard with pump for longer.
Anpow - improves your ability to carry out near maximal moves in a row without powering out?

[mrjonathanr]

Thanks Stu. Geekery is good! I am interested in what people do practically to improve, but also to understand more, especially since what I have understood leaves questions in relation to what methods would be best.

I think you have hit the nail on the head with data. I expect in a few years, a few more Olympic cycles, the body of data will be  sufficiently extensive to narrow down what works best and how to personalise it. Probably Lattice's pension plan tbh. however, 20 was a long time ago for me, so now I just want to use my time efficiently. 

It will take a while to digest your point; Lord knows it took long enough to grasp the krebs cycle/glycolytic cylestuff!

edit - Paul, I read (I don't cycle) that it is 45m-60m depending on degree of training but that 20mins at 95% of FTP was a standard proxy to get it. In any case, no hard sport climb takes that long (unless you like knee bars..).

[Paul B]

It's 60 minutes (see below) and I think you're mixed up; you can output a higher power for less time. Thus,  you reduce your 20 minute power output by 5% to predict your (lower) FTP that you can sustain for 3x as long.

Edit: https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us/articles/201377644-Common-Training-Acronyms-Defined-

[mrjonathanr]

Sounds broadly right to me Rocksteady, although I understood AnCap as effectively lifting both intensity and sustaining near maximal moves, with AnPower being able to access it fully and rapidly.

To respond to this:

Stressing the system as hard as possible isn't necessarily the best way of training it, otherwise (for example) we'd just do aeropow and not aerocap/arc! I think most exercises aim to go to (near) failure but not necessarily per-rep. If you went to failure each rep you'd need long rests, but not so if you aim to approach failure each set.

I appreciate that exhaustion is not usually the best way to train as it typically requires very long recovery periods, rather I question if intervals with inadequate recovery train the system as fully as they could. I think it's obvious there is a lot going on, just grossly simplified at the level I can grasp it. it really depends on what the rate limiting molecules are and they might be far from obvious.

in that sense, aeropow and aerccap processes might actually be training some very different things, despite looking like they only really vary in intensity. t's really easy to just assume with little knowledge.