[Bradders]

Added comment by Cheque after split topic 

Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.

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Names are important for giving a climb an identity, and it is that identity that (in part) makes the climbing of them so worthwhile. When a climb has an identify it becomes so much more than just rock. It makes me a bit sad to think that there's a venue as good as Barden Fell where the climbs are so unloved that nobody has even thought them worth a name.

100% this. Well said. It's not all about #greentickwankers on Insta, giving problems names is the first step, after the FA, of giving them history, which ultimately gives them a soul and identity. Some clearly much more than others, and big, banging lines in a wild and remote place even more so.

Note: The poll was added by Bonjoy

[remus]

Having not been before Im almost certainly looking at this through tinted glasses.

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.

If you could start afresh I'd agree, but with the situation as it is there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).

It seems to me there is a fairly marginal gain in documenting it but the downside of then not having a more adventurous venue like this available in future seems fairly major. This thread has got me psyched for a couple of trips up next summer, I can't imagine It'll ever be much more than that but I kinda like that.

[steveri]

This is an interesting debate and at the risk of further diluting the excellent list of foraging at the top...

I had a look the (Todmorden) Bridestones for the first time in 20 years recently. That's fallen off the map too for presumably similar reasons. It was in the Cameron Duff guide from 2001 but not the more recent Yorkshire Bouldering guide. It's also 5-10 mins from the road vs the long march to Grinah Stones.

Some of the rock is a bit soft but don't feel there's a massive step change in lots of similar venues elsewhere. I could be wrong. But it didn't feel particularly trashed. Anyone comment on Bridestones - was anyone here involved in the decision to leave it off the guide?

...and if anyone has a PDF of the ACD guide that would make a perfect christmas gift, I only have the older OTE topo

[Will Hunt]

there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).

A couple of points.
1. Despite popular belief, rock climbing does extend beyond the bounds of the Peak District National Park.
2. Your above statement is probably untrue and largely a matter of perspective. There will probably be plenty of decent venues out there, even if the climbing is predominantly <7A.

[Droyd]

I was vaguely aware of the Grinah Stones as a result of reading Over The Moors cover-to-cover, but this thread has massively piqued my interest in heading there come good weather next year. As a Sheffied-based boulderer who has steadily chipped away at a lot of the bouldering in the Peak at both obvious and more obscure venues, I’m at the point where it’s relatively unusual for me to have done absolutely nothing at a crag, and even more unusual that I’ve never even been to have a look; in the case of Grinah I think it’s simply because I don’t know a) what’s there that justifies going there rather than somewhere else (either a known quantity or somewhere that I’m inspired to go as a result of media, a write-up, a gushing UKC log) and b) what the logistics of the place are like in terms of whether things will be wet/unclimbably dirty/not possible to do if I just head there with one mate and two pads between us. 

Hands down the best day I had this year was going up to Howshaw and doing Black Rhino, having a poke around the crag, doing a couple of easier things, then walking back down. The best bit of that was being out in a beautiful place with a good friend on a stunning day, but the fact that we did such a brilliant problem was both the icing on the cake and what got us up there in the first place. It sounds like Grinah Stones would be a similar experience, but since we went up to Howshaw my mate has had a baby and now gets one day of climbing a week, best-case scenario. I’m still very time-rich as I’m self-employed, but given how precious his days out now are, if I convince him that we should head up to Grinah are we going to have another fantastic day or will we take the pads for a very long walk, find that we needed more pads and people, and head back with him quietly wishing he’d spent his limited time at Stanage or Curbar?

I feel a bit gross writing all of this out as it feels like it goes exactly counter to the whole idea of the Grinah Stones, in terms of what some other people have written here and the write-up in the BMC guide – and also a bit like I’m asking those who have put in the work in going up there and and cleaning climbing things to share their information with me and convince me of its value. I figure it’s worth expressing, however, in case my view is representative of others’. Basically I’ve no interest in tearing the veil back completely with some bullshit clickbait ‘Hidden GEMS of the PEAKS – you’ll NEVER believe where we CLIMBED’ YT video or exhaustive descriptions, topos, beta videos, and UKC logs; it seems part of what’s special about the place is that sense of mystery and exploration. But I personally would love to have a better idea of what’s up there, so something like Bonjoy’s ‘taster topo’ would be hugely appreciated, were he willing to make and share it.

Hopefully this doesn't come across as too self-centred and indicative of everything wrong with the UKC/Instagram generation of climbers (particularly as I've never used a green-tick emoji in my life!). I'm definitely not demanding anyone share the fruits of their labour, nor even arguing for an approach that we should take as a community; more sharing my thoughts as someone who is interested in going but has yet to due to laziness. If the consensus is that my reasons for not going are ones that mean I don't really deserve to go in the first place that's fair enough - it might be that we as a community conclude that Grinah is best not visited by people who prize some semblance of certainty over adventure in their days out and want answers to age-old questions like 'what will be dry', 'how many pads are needed to make something totally safe', 'is there even anything good there'.

[remus]

there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).

A couple of points.
1. Despite popular belief, rock climbing does extend beyond the bounds of the Peak District National Park.
2. Your above statement is probably untrue and largely a matter of perspective. There will probably be plenty of decent venues out there, even if the climbing is predominantly <7A.

Im sure there's plenty of great undiscovered gems in the himalaya, they're not very accessible though. My point is that it's nice to have a range of experiences available within an area, and I feel like the 'documented crags' end of the spectrum is pretty well covered in the peak.

[not_an_athlete]

Certain problems are in a bad state. There’s enough information online if you want to go but having that barrier to entry helps protect the place to some extent.

Crags with dodgy access are treated in the same way e.g Craig y David etc.

[teestub]

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.

This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!

[Will Hunt]

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.

This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!

We've already planted our flag in Brownlow Rocher. The march south continues!

[36chambers]

for those seeking the undocumented experience, just don't take a guidebook the next time you go to a crag for the first time.

[Jacqusie]

If there was a crag where its specifically in the book as we're leaving this in but with no problems listed as the unique vibe is the remoteness and sense of adventure, I think that'd be cool.

Like that doesn't feel elitist to me, just a conscious decision to preserve something. Anyone can go and try stuff there but it is word of mouth and personal exploration.

There's always been some debate on whether the problems round Grinah should be documented or not, back in 2007 when we were writing the BMC Over the Moors guide this thread took place:

https://ukbouldering.com/board/index.php/topic,7075.msg103229.html#msg103229

The previous BMC Kinder guide had even less information and asking the question at the time about this very same issue, we decided not to topo the area and stick with tradition. I realise traditions change, thousands of boulder problems that now sit in guides were never recorded when done back in the day and we stand on the shoulders of giants such as John Allen and big Ron.

JB at the time summed it up by saying how it gives a totally unique experience on grit, certainly in the Peak. We cobbled a page and a few photo’s for it in the end and hoped that it might entice and attract rather than promote too much I suppose, giving people the opportunity to experience it a bit differently from other venues in the guide which were documented in detail.

It’s well worth the walk up there, the Barrow Stones are also great and that exploratory feel certainly chimes with their remote aspect and the effort to climb them. There's a small amount of info and photo's on UKC too:

https://www.ukclimbing.com/logbook/crags/grinah_and_barrow_stones-27295/#overview

Maybe a photo article in one of the mags or on the web would work and give people something to help inspire and inform - I did a small piece for High magazine back in 2003 which I'm sure the wads of the day were all reading 

It would still allow that personal and unique experience of the area which in these days of soundbites and insta itnterweb ticks, is a very precious thing indeed.

[GazM]

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.

This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!

Yeah, that "massively underused resource" term really got my hackles up. They're rocks that we arbitrarily decide to climb on, not a resource that 'should' be 'used'.

[Fiend]

While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....

I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.

 

[scragrock]

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get.

This is some very odd somewhat colonialist language you’ve chosen Will!

Yeah, that "massively underused resource" term really got my hackles up. They're rocks that we arbitrarily decide to climb on, not a resource that 'should' be 'used'.

 
As a Time served Highland explorer who has done his fair share of development including guides Gaz, i am interested in how you would go about improving/tweaking or even scrapping the status quo for the afore mentioned area?
If you could somehow take back the Torridon guide and slide time backward to a era before the Uni groups and Van life adventurers, would you?

Genuinely important thread this as it opens up a long running conversation that in the first instance is about a specific local but has wide ranging impacts on ethics and access/ guides and grades and ideas on protection/conservation.

Does every generation struggle with this?

[Will Hunt]

As somebody who has done some development and been involved in guides, then yes, I think it is a good thing to share information about rock climbing venues. I can see the value of having undocumented crags but the reality is that if there's no information out there about them then very few people will go (and for places like Grinah even having the information out there wouldn't be enough to make them popular, such are the barriers to access). On balance, it sounds like Grinah is too good not to share.

Let's not pretend that Grinah is the only off-grid crag in the Peak - the Woolpacks have been mentioned - and I bet Bonjoy and Bolehillbilly etc have venues up their sleeves. If you're struggling to think of where they might be then, duh, that's because that's the whole point!

Coming at this from a different angle, anybody who is even remotely interested in the long term conservation of rock climbing will have to think about it in terms of a planner. In doing so, words like "under-used resource" might slip their lips.
The preservation of places like Stanage or Almscliff is not served by information embargoes on places like Grinah or Barden Fell. Hypothetically, you'd be better off having information, technicolour videos, and green ticks out there for Grinah (that might increase the annual visitor numbers from 4 to 5); and combining this with information embargoes on Stanage. Stanage would still be popular - there's plenty of people around to share the information by word of mouth - but people might actually set their sights further afield and spare the rock of our most at-risk venues. Maybe its best to turn the dark forces of Instagram and ego to serve rock climbing rather than leave them to destroy it.

[teestub]

I think you’ve failed to support your own argument as a planner there Will: if Grinah is not going to become popular even if documented (as you say) then it’s not going to take any pressure off Stanage. As Bradders pointed out as a Yorkshire equivalent, I’m not sure many people chose Flaystones over Almscliff for a summer’s evening, despite the videos, grades and green ticks all around.

As such you’re not going to ‘spread the load’ of climbers by opening up Grinah as a ‘measured commodity’. 

[Will Hunt]

That point goes beyond Grinah. Giving good information does help reduce the load at crowded places, though admittedly it's not doing it enough or as much as it could at the moment. I'm thinking of Unknown Stones where there are definitely people who use it enthusiastically who might have ended up at Almscliff, but use is not as widespread as it could be because:
a) the website structure that was designed when we started with 30 crags is now groaning under the weight of over 100,
b) mixed quality of topos meaning some high quality venues don't look very good on paper (lack of good action shots etc),
c) lack of social media buzz - the BMC needs to pay some Psychi-pad punts to go-a-gramming at Sigsworth,
d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.   

[Bonjoy]

I've split this from the new probs thread and added a poll.

[remus]

d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.

For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.

[Bonjoy]

Having not been before Im almost certainly looking at this through tinted glasses.

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.

If you could start afresh I'd agree, but with the situation as it is there isn't an abundance of undocumented crags in the peak (well, ones that aren't shit anyway).

It seems to me there is a fairly marginal gain in documenting it but the downside of then not having a more adventurous venue like this available in future seems fairly major. This thread has got me psyched for a couple of trips up next summer, I can't imagine It'll ever be much more than that but I kinda like that.

When you say marginal gains, out of interest how many problems do you imagine are up there? And would your view be affected by how many potential high quality lines there are?

[cheque]

Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.

Also this is the ideal time of year to be talking about Grinah as it’s when we all like to dream that we’ll be spending loads of time in these sort of places when the weather improves. When it gets to May of course, if any of us are still psyched the absolute hassle of trying to persuade others to come along will rule it out. 

[Bonjoy]

d) realistically you have to accept that places like Caley are very extensive, very good, and very easily accessible and you're not going to completely alter the tastes and wants of the majority of climbers.

For me I think this is the core of it. You're not gonna shift the hordes away from plantation but you will be taking something tangible away from people who want to trudge across moorland and brush scrittle off something in their own company.

Believe me Remus, there will never be a shortage of scrittle to brush off the rocks of Bleaklow and Kinder and there are no shortage of much more obscure and untrammelled bits than Grinah. I think we can all agree that the approach and location will always mean Grinah is infrequently visited, regardless of documentation. Documentation will not rob anyone of a quiet day up there, or the chance to clean scrittle, and if they want to not know how hard things are, or where other people's favourite climbs are then they need not read any topo.

[Bonjoy]

Since the thread split has credited me with starting this debate I’d like to state that I’m neutral regarding whether the climbs should be recorded. Everyone should go and experience it though. It’s fantastic up there. Bleaklow in general always seems so much more vast and mysterious even than similar areas to me.

Also this is the ideal time of year to be talking about Grinah as it’s when we all like to dream that we’ll be spending loads of time in these sort of places when the weather improves. When it gets to May of course, if any of us are still psyched the absolute hassle of trying to persuade others to come along will rule it out. 

Soz Mike  . I'll add your comment to the OP.

[Bonjoy]

While we're having a sane and balanced exchange of views, I did get forwarded this from an anonymous member of a private chat....

I do want to have a moan though as I’ve just seen the grinah thread. Is nowhere safe from the fucking virus that climbers are? These places do not need traffic - it’s a bullshit argument by people who have to spread their blogs/videos/instabook. I’ve been going regularly up on the moors for the last 15 years, including finding the known problems on howshaw, outer edge, crow, barrow before any fucker knew about them. The peak is fucked so why can’t climbers just for once not ruin yet another place for those who actually like adventure. Leave no trace is fucking lost on climbers it seems. Hypocritical wankers. Bah, rant over.

 

Sounds like an insufferable bigoted and tedious arsehole. No wonder they avoid company. 

[Wellsy]

I can appreciate the sentiment of "people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z" but not "other people shouldn't be climbing X, Y and Z but I'm fine to do it." Either people are allowed to climb on it or they ain't.