[Jacqusie]

Have not managed to get up to the wool packs yet - but have been up to the Grinah Stones - Barrow Stones and Round Hill on Bleaklow. There's always been some debate on whether the problems up there should be documented or not? Me I reckon a few probs described for some history and area documentation for those who want to make a trek there to explore is ok (maps etc?) . There will be a few things on Bleaklow in the new Moorland Grit guide - but do people who have been there think that this area should be left now  - as there is still areas to be bouldered on - Worm stones - bleaklow rocks  - duck Stones (chew Valley) etc.

The rock is quite fragile - with the patina thin and crispy in some areas like a poppadum - and I would never encourage over use - but then  - its such a great area to go - and the Honey pots are getting trashed ....

Its a fine line and opinions would be greatfully received...

Cheers all

Si

 

[Somebody's Fool]

I'd leave them undocumented if I was you. 

The undoubted retroclaims and potential environmental damage would leave you on very shaky ground. And not just because it's made of peat.

Also the adventurous nature of a day out at Kinder is half the charm.  It's not like you go for the rock quality is it? Although I've heard the Grinah Stones rock is decent.

[Jacqusie]

Aye - the Grinah stones are fairly solid - some great hueco's in the boulders and some lovely pocketed slabs. Most solid of the lot  - but then Round hill is a fair bit like Wimberry - scratchy but hard rock.

Best left for exploring there - what about the duck stones near wimberry??

they are great and would love to go again..

cheers

si

[etjoset]

Because the BMC guides claim to be comprehensive and because the new(ish) Roaches and Burbage and Beyond guides have set a precedent by including a fairly definitive coverage of boulder problems, there is an argument that the bouldering should be documented in the forthcoming Kinder and Bleaklow BMC guide(s). That said, the environmental argument for not including these problems is quite strong. An important question to consider is quite how many boulderers are likely to be prepared to make the arduous trek if they were to be documented? Most "fair weather" types will have switched to climbing routes by the time these moorland crags come into condition.

A couple of compromise solutions might be to: 1) describe a few of the more obvious problems (especially those which are likely to be more hard-wearing) and then additionally provide approach instructions for those prepared to seek a bit of adventure); 2) document the problems more fully but publish them as an online PDF, rather than in a printed guidebook. This will be of value to those prepared to put in the effort to visit these places but is unlikely to attract the hordes.

Derwent Edge is perhaps a good indicator of the likely consequences of publishing these areas in a printed guide. The Derwent Edge problems have been documented in at least three separate guides (Peak Plus Bouldering 1995, Rockfax and Burbage and Beyond), and yet the problems there have never proved overly popular. Despite the grit there being fairly soft and gritty, there has been relatively little environmental degradation over the past 12 years.

[Jacqusie]

Thanks for replying - I think option 1 makes sense and thats in effect whats happened so far. I think a bit of a carrot to people may be enough for those who want to explore get up there. Too much documentation would be overkill and the area's nature would be spoilt. Then again - as new problems become thin on the ground - whose to say what will lie ahead?

cheers

si

[Fiend]

Duckstones should be in for routes of course!

In fact really it should be in for everything, because it is part of a whole valley area (Wimberry Alderman Upperwood Standing Stones Ravenstones Robs Rocks Wilderness Rocks) that will be definitively documented - missing out one chunk of the valley rim would be silly. Maybe it should be the example of "this is the sort of stuff there is available, now go explore".

[Bonjoy]

 The solution I favour for the Grinah stones is to have a pen and notepad in a tin stashed up at the crag, which people can use to record what they do on. That way if you make the effort to visit you will be rewarded with useful interesting info. The history isn't lost, but the remote mystique is retained.

[Johnny Brown]

There has been a long tradition of leaving the Grinah stones unrecorded. I strongly believe this should continue.
At present it gives a totally unique experience on grit. There is a wealth of good bouldering with absolutely no guide. For once in your life you are really faced with the reality of the question, 'Why do I climb?' For most of us I think we like to think its not just to get a tick in the book or to eran big numbers. However at Grinah none of these are available and you'll soon discover whether you can remain motivated. Without names, grades or even photos you are reduced entirely to reading the rock and finding your own challenges. How long are you prepared to try something that looks easy, but frustrates? Are you willing to really project something without the reward of a grade or a new problem? Its hard to explain quite what a new and fresh experience this is to the average gritstoner - The Peak is probably the most closely documented climbing area in the world; this is a wonderful antidote. Leaving a guide at the crag isn't going to last, either way info will soon spread from it. I think there is a strong argument for leaving all problems and history totally unrecorded.

As for the environmental aspect, I think naming a few problems is a worse solution than attempting complete coverage. I don't think there is a need to be oblique or secretive about it, state that this is one of the best bouldering areas in the peak but explain the ethic of leaving history unwritten.

As for other areas, I think most of them have already been documented to some extent already. The Woolpacks, cool as they are, are never going to produce any worthwhile problems, the rock just isn't up to it. I suspect the same goes for several other moorland venues.

I don't think Derwent has escaped popularity just by being remoteness. The main factor is is is crap, and spread out. No one I've ever been up there has been keen for a return visit, at least within the same year.

[Monolith]

Agreed JB. Seems a simple solution to a delicate issue.

[Bonjoy]

 Hmmmm, I think you've sold it to me. Undocumented quality bouldering in a remote corner of the peak is perhaps a more precious thing than a complete historical record.
 Spent a fair while bouldering like that at an undocumented boulder field at Castle Hill called Dry Valley and really enjoyed it. Someone had almost completed a guide to the crag, but then left it at the crag and never managed to find it again. It remains undocumented I think

[Ru]

I think it should be left undocumented. When doing the Peak Bouldering guide I spent some time up on Kinder and Bleaklow with a view to perhaps recording it. I decided not to for the reasons above. It's a much better place to explore than to have documented and pretty much the only extensive area left in the Peak that is like this. Once it's documented you can't go back.

[BenF]

Spent a fair while bouldering like that at an undocumented boulder field at Castle Hill called Dry Valley and really enjoyed it. Someone had almost completed a guide to the crag, but then left it at the crag and never managed to find it again. It remains undocumented I think

A good comparison there Bonjoy.  The beauty of Dry Valley is that it is undocumented compared to say Quantum Field or now Spittle Hill (following Matt P's guide) which have basically had every nook and cranny explored and recorded.  Great as the documentation is for Quantum Field and Spittle Hill, the nature of all Castle Hill areas, eg sprawling labyrinths of rock, means that there is plenty of fun to be had just wandering about climbing anything that looks good or possible.  Flock Hill is not dissimilar due to it's massive size and that most people who climb there, even regular locals, don't have any sort of guide to the hill and although you may know of some named testpieces (eg Thousand Times Slab or Psychic Tealady), on the whole you're just climbing for climbings sake and not because you know the name or grade of it.  

[tc]

Keeping it quiet gets my vote

[Paz]

I think you should keep it quiet so all those wankers from Yorkshire and Lancashire don't come down and trash the place.

[Jacqusie]

<<The Peak is probably the most closely documented climbing area in the world; this is a wonderful antidote. Leaving a guide at the crag isn't going to last, either way info will soon spread from it. I think there is a strong argument for leaving all problems and history totally unrecorded.....>>>



I agree - its a magical place to go and explore with no book telling you the dot to dot lines. However I've done a short peice (not really prescriptive) in the new guide for would be exploerers' up on Grinah etc - I'm sure it will never suffer from erosion and likewise people are not gonna be really bothered to hike up there unless they are really keen.

The area's have been documented since the 1900's by EA Baker - and as such I guess will always be a place of exploration  - I'm not lugging any aggregate up there for erosion issues in the future I'm sure!!

 

Si

[Paz]

The area's been documented since before the 1930s mass trespass?  They were keen back then.

[Johnny Brown]

However I've done a short peice (not really prescriptive) in the new guide for would be exploerers' up on Grinah etc

as i said,

I don't think there is a need to be oblique or secretive about it, state that this is one of the best bouldering areas in the peak but explain the ethic of leaving history unwritten.

Be nice if we can avoid any descriptions of problems, that's all. Look forward to seeing your piece.

[Jacqusie]

The routes up there have been described (only about 5) for history & completeness - Jim Moran, Bancroft, Grimer and Andy Cave did some I seem to remember -  I took out of the new route book / UKC new climbs up there.

- the bouldering has been left for peeps to explore at the Grinah & Barrow stones and Round hill. I remember Roundhill being particually untouched and a great venue to play on. Still I did have to name this one - so obvious!!

http://www.ukclimbing.com/images/dbpage.html?id=935

Cheers

si

[Falling Down]

Another vote to keep it undocumented.