[cheque]

There must be another dimension where I didn’t stall out on making my Peak bouldering development film and now have loads of great footage for it. 

NOTE: Some of the best things have been up at Grinah Stone where we did some cracking stuff which probably hasn’t been done before as they required cleaning by abseil. I’d love to be able to share these and to encourage more traffic, but I’ll stick by the agreed no documentation thing. FWIW I think this rule is well past it’s use by date. There are so many hurdles to put people off going to this place that even people ‘in the know’ rarely actually make it up. I really think the place would still be extremely quiet if written up, people would just get more and better climbing done when they were there. If anyone wants info on stuff I know about up there by all means PM me.

I was blown away when I went up there both by the sheer amount of rock and by how much of it is in the “Jesus, look at that!” category.

[Johnny Brown]

[author=Bonjoy link=topic=31666.msg651296#msg651296 date=1640172304]
NOTE: Some of the best things have been up at Grinah Stone where we did some cracking stuff which probably hasn’t been done before as they required cleaning by abseil. I’d love to be able to share these and to encourage more traffic, but I’ll stick by the agreed no documentation thing. FWIW I think this rule is well past it’s use by date. There are so many hurdles to put people off going to this place that even people ‘in the know’ rarely actually make it up. I really think the place would still be extremely quiet if written up, people would just get more and better climbing done when they were there. If anyone wants info on stuff I know about up there by all means PM me.

I'm not sure of the rationale for the original decision not to publish, but (as you say) if it was ro reduce traffic it does seems overkill. However it is a special and unique experience to visit a venue as good as this and have to explore and make the problems up yourself, and then leave with no ticks or grades, just memories. It can leave your ego a little adrift and I think that that perhaps is more valuable now than ever as bouldering gets ever more goal oriented and acquisitive. Of course that effect will be strongest on a first visit, and be much reduced if you have an initiate to show you round, but my first visit was a very memorable experience that I hadn't anticipated, and gave me pause to question my usual motivations. So I think given we've got this far, it might be worth continuing. Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?

There might be a third way which is to publish some photos in the guide showing the breadth and depth, alongside some vague navel gazing text explanation (or even a poem if we really wanted to annoy people).

Edit: neither of the Kinder Guides suggest the venue is left undescribed to protect it from popularity, in fact both actively promote it as being great, so I suspect the reasoning is more along the lines of the above.

PS that long thing was never 7A+!

[reeve]

Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?

I would have thought that would put it well up your street 

[remus]

Im with JB on the Grinah stones thing (though I've not actually been...)

The peak is pretty well documented so having a spot (and a good one at that by the looks of it) where you're forced to explore is a relatively unique experience.

[teestub]

That sounds great to me JB!

[Bonjoy]

I'm not sure of the rationale for the original decision not to publish, but (as you say) if it was ro reduce traffic it does seems overkill. However it is a special and unique experience to visit a venue as good as this and have to explore and make the problems up yourself, and then leave with no ticks or grades, just memories. It can leave your ego a little adrift and I think that that perhaps is more valuable now than ever as bouldering gets ever more goal oriented and acquisitive. Of course that effect will be strongest on a first visit, and be much reduced if you have an initiate to show you round, but my first visit was a very memorable experience that I hadn't anticipated, and gave me pause to question my usual motivations. So I think given we've got this far, it might be worth continuing. Forgive me for going a little DT here, but what does the community gain by writing it up? A messy scramble for retro-claims, more of the same to spoonfeed the masses with, and a litttle less wildness in the world?

There might be a third way which is to publish some photos in the guide showing the breadth and depth, alongside some vague navel gazing text explanation (or even a poem if we really wanted to annoy people).

Edit: neither of the Kinder Guides suggest the venue is left undescribed to protect it from popularity, in fact both actively promote it as being great, so I suspect the reasoning is more along the lines of the above.

PS that long thing was never 7A+!

Avoiding overuse is a rationale I have heard used. I agree it's not the most persuasive one. Worth shooting down prior to any real debate for that reason.
Your preserved mystery proposition is more valid, sadly in practice it just means the opportunity for an experience is preserved for a mass of climbers who in the main never take it up. In the meantime the long term enjoyment of the place is compromised for people with a genuine and lasting enthusiasm for the place. In the 20 years I've been going there the surface of the climbing remains little more than scratched. It's a shame.
I've been visiting and climbing there for many years and find that nobody else visits more than once or twice. I think I can safely claim I don't need the lure of FAs to get myself there, but it certainly looks like other people need a bit of extra info to encourage them.
I also favour a middle ground, which would remove the retro scramble. Problems get recorded offline w/wo names, but no FA details. People get the info if they want it, or don't if they don't.
In the absence of that then at least some sort of 'taster' topo detailing some lines and some obvious remaining challenges.

[Bonjoy]

That sounds great to me JB!

Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.

[teestub]

That sounds great to me JB!

Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.

This is the sort of thought experiment I went for and it sounds really interesting. I assume when you take people there you say like ‘that prow is an amazing low 7’ or whatever? That sort of communication would just be natural, but I like the idea that other people can have a different experience.

What do you personally think you are missing out on by not being able to record problems? Is it just having other people to develop things for you to try? It sounds like a great set up for a FAist.

[Johnny Brown]

I think the protection issue has been conflated with the Woolpacks, which is both very fragile and highly valued by non-climbers, and hence should never have been included in a guide.

I did give some sort of halfway house write up thought but figured it would just morph into another full write up sooner or later. I think the nub of it is to negate the ticking mentality. If that makes it even quieter, so be it. The write up in Over the Moors is worth revisiting if like me you'd forgotten it. Worth remembering this has been done to death on the forum previously too.

Can you expand on how your enjoyment is compromised? Not sure I follow...

That sounds great to me JB!

Ask yourself this Tim. How would you feel if the same information embargo had and still applied to Simon's, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones combined? That's the scale and quality of Grinah. It just takes another level of effort to get there.

That is a bit of an exaggeration (unless you are ignoring routes at the above?) and the walk in is not that dissimilar. But there are plenty such venues in Yorkshire and further north. I think a big part of Grinah's value lies in its wild nature despite being slap bang between Sheffield and Manchester.

More importantly Johnny Brown, can you think of a name for the Cracliffe thing/s? 7b for Samantha Muesli?

Gnomic aphorisms?

[Johnny Brown]

Worth remembering this has been done to death on the forum previously too.

OTOH I do think it is reasonable to revisit. Maybe worth a thread split as BJs new stuff is worth more than three pages of mild moral dilemmas.

The way we pass info on has changed since the ethic was established. Gatekeeping on this info via guidebook writers (as mentioned in Over the Moors) is not a realistic way to keep thinds under wraps any more. And I'm probably not the only one to be surprised by the sudden popularity and instant scene around developments like Bradley edge. But I don't think that sort of buzz will ever happen around Grinah, boulderers just don't like bogtrotting. Lord's seat is a reasonable comparison but the walk in is straightforward. Whereas Grinah has no decent path and too many poor approach options with the shortest unavailable at weekends. Plus surrounded by very good venues of very easy access. For me it would be a bit of a sad indictment of modern climbing if available ticks did suddenly make it popular.

I guess the other thing to bear in mind is you can't go back. Once the info is out it's just another venue. As so often with conservation, the battle is never over because no sooner have you won the argument once another developer pops up. I do think it's special and unique and that's not something to be binned off lightly.

[Bonjoy]

That is a bit of an exaggeration (unless you are ignoring routes at the above?) and the walk in is not that dissimilar. But there are plenty such venues in Yorkshire and further north. I think a big part of Grinah's value lies in its wild nature despite being slap bang between Sheffield and Manchester.

I am largely discounting routes as I was thinking how Tim would enjoy these crags. There are a good few fully route length things at Grinah though.
I think you maybe underestimate the amount of climbing, mostly bouldering that there is at Grinah. The bouldering at Lords/Simon/Hen is of a similar volume, it's just more obvious because it's all documented.
I've fully explored Grinah, there's a lot, it's just compact and complex in nature. This is part of my point, most non-developers just don't see a lot of stuff without direction, so walk away missing a lot of fun.

[T_B]

I finally went to the Grinah Stones this June for the first time. Given it’s a 6k/1hr20mins walk in from the reservoir and you can’t drive up the reservoir at weekends, it’s never going to be that popular. On top of that ideally you want a team as many of the best looking lines are highball or the landings not perfect. And on top of that it would be miserable up there for 6 months of the year. You’re certainly not going to risk questing up there unless it’s been pretty dry.

We enjoyed exploring around but if I’m honest I’d like to have known what a few things were. I also can’t help thinking that a touch more traffic would help with the scrittle! It’s not that much more ‘unique’ than Howshaw in the sense of its aspect and remoteness (40 mins walk to Howshaw), albeit there’s a hell of a lot more there. Dunno, feels kind of elitist to keep it under wraps. Lots of stuff at all levels for people to enjoy.

[Bonjoy]

To expand on my 'compromised enjoyment' statement. I don't mean  me particularly, though it would be nice not having to pre-clean everything myself, given the effort it takes to get there. And I would enjoy a period in which the crag had the sort of buzz about it that I think it deserves. I genuinely don't care about having my name attached to things here, but it dies seem a fair waste of the cleaning effort to not be able to alert people to something good which will revert to its original state in two or three years.
Generally though I'm thinking more of people who are inspired more by getting properly involved in the complexities of a crag, but who don't have the time or will to develop. Who given a little more knowledge would be going there more regularly and trying harder more involved things. For whatever reason this just doesn't happen now. I've literally never bumped into another climber there. From talking to climbers it seems the inspiration value of the early visits quickly wears off. They don't put it exactly like that obviously. There are different levels of inspiration to climb and presently it's only offering most people the introductory novelty visit or two, at least that's how it looks.
It's nice to have shared knowledge to discuss and debate. The level of crag knowledge about the place is minimal. This is quite boring after 20 years.
Yes this is periodically debated. I do think the consensus, such as it is, is skewed a little by people who're never likely to visit, or did once 'back in the day' romanticising an anachronistic convention which was invented long before bouldering was what it is now.


If I get chance I'll split the Grinah posts off and amend to the older thread debating the topic.

[Bradders]

For me it would be a bit of a sad indictment of modern climbing if available ticks did suddenly make it popular.

I don't think an increase in popularity post documentation would have anything to do with "available ticks", it would simply be that people would know about it who currently don't. I mean I've been bouldering in the Peak for 6/7 years now and I only heard about Grinah in the last few months, and then simply because I follow a few relatively niche people on Instagram. People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.

As such, this rings rather true...

feels kind of elitist to keep it under wraps. Lots of stuff at all levels for people to enjoy.

Your preserved mystery proposition is more valid, sadly in practice it just means the opportunity for an experience is preserved for a mass of climbers who in the main never take it up.

I think this is a key point. The vast majority of people simply don't have the time to dedicate to the sort of exploratory days out that first ascenting or this kind of totally undocumented venue requires. They're being denied an experience on their terms in favour of preserving the experience of others with greater privilege. That's hard to get on board with.

I'm very grateful to people like Bonjoy who put so much time and effort into development, and it's a crying shame when their efforts are not shared with the wider community. Doing so gives time poor people like me an opportunity for some great experiences. I can't see how that's anything other than a good thing.

[Jacqusie]

* Smiling Moon 7A+
25m below and right/south of Grands Doigts is a block with a crescent moon shaped ramp on the left side. Sit start on the ramp and climb up rightwards to a pocket on the arete and a juggy finish.

Ah you found it!    I wondered when, it was just a matter of time really. I stumbled on this about 20 years ago and it was so minging with a lovely garden of it's own on the top, never went back until last summer when I started cleaning the top off and left arete and was struck by the lovely rib feature. Glad you both gave it some attention and it's been done from the sit start it deserves.

Great that you guys could develop the rocks on the Froggatt after the ash dieback work too and for my money's worth the best name is the fabulous 'Lionel Reachy 

[teestub]

I think this is a key point. The vast majority of people simply don't have the time to dedicate to the sort of exploratory days out that first ascenting or this kind of totally undocumented venue requires. They're being denied an experience on their terms in favour of preserving the experience of others with greater privilege. That's hard to get on board with.

I'm very grateful to people like Bonjoy who put so much time and effort into development, and it's a crying shame when their efforts are not shared with the wider community. Doing so gives time poor people like me an opportunity for some great experiences. I can't see how that's anything other than a good thing.

I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.

If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now. I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.

[cheque]

People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.

Or own the guidebook that covers that area.

[Bradders]

I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.

If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now. I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.

A very good counterpoint indeed. I do like the sound of a completely out of the way venue that no one knows about.

That said, the simple fact that it's a very long walk will likely leave it in obscurity anyway. Flaystones springs to mind as a good comparison; a lovely venue with a very good circuit of problems across the grades, thoroughly documented but, protected as it is by the c. 5 mile walk in, hardly gets any traffic at all. I think it does also seep pretty badly in places but still.

[Bonjoy]

I guess the counterpoint would be that there are thousands upon thousands of documented experiences out there, more than most people, particularly time limited ones, will get to in their time bouldering, so preserving one venue outside that doesn't seem like a great loss.

To be clear, the venue is not being preserved by remaining undocumented, just one exclusive way of experiencing it.

If Grinah was like Cuvier with a long walk in, I'm sure the beans would have been well out of the bag by now.

Maybe I'm misreading you here, but you seem to be saying, if it's not already documented it can't be that good. Firstly I think you should reserve judgement until you've been. Secondly you underestimate the power of social convention/peer pressure, in this case an old decision to not document Grinah Stones. Whatever the origin of this convention, it's not something that local climbers would lightly overturn even if they wholly disagreed with it.

I assume the Barden Fell comparison is also appropriate in this case, in that there are probably a few great problems there in a nice location.

To be clear, and again I might be misreading you. You're saying you don't rate Barden Fell much anyway (and presumably would be fine if it too had a documentation ban)and if Grinah is it bit like it you think people aren't missing much because you don't need a guide to admire the view? 

[Bradders]

People simply don't know about it unless they hang around UKB or are friends with the right people.

Or own the guidebook that covers that area.

I assume it's the Over the Moors guide it's referenced in?

If so, I suspect most boulderers just don't own that guide (I don't), since it's a routes guide...

[cheque]

There’s bouldering in it (200 problems, albeit with V grades), it just covers a big area that doesn’t have a lot of recorded bouldering in it.

As you say, that means it’s on very few boulderers-who-don’t-climb-routes shelves but you can’t act like a shadowy cabal of elites are stopping the masses from knowing about a crag when there’s an in-print guidebook with a map, instructions on how to get there, text encouraging you to visit and full-page photos of impressive-looking highballs.

The Barrow Stones is the real crag the Sheffield Mafia are keeping secret.

[Wellsy]

If there was a crag where its specifically in the book as we're leaving this in but with no problems listed as the unique vibe is the remoteness and sense of adventure, I think that'd be cool.

Like that doesn't feel elitist to me, just a conscious decision to preserve something. Anyone can go and try stuff there but it is word of mouth and personal exploration. Seems cool anyway.

[teestub]

To be clear, the venue is not being preserved by remaining undocumented, just one exclusive way of experiencing it.

Sorry yes this is what I meant, the experience being preserved

Maybe I'm misreading you here, but you seem to be saying, if it's not already documented it can't be that good. Firstly I think you should reserve judgement until you've been. Secondly you underestimate the power of social convention/peer pressure, in this case an old decision to not document Grinah Stones. Whatever the origin of this convention, it's not something that local climbers would lightly overturn even if they wholly disagreed with it.

Not at all, there’s obviously still gems out there waiting to be unearthed. My point was rather that if it was a crag of international quality (rather than regional or national quality) then I’m sure someone would have run roughshod over the convention by now, likely in the form of a YouTube video with a click bait title! I’m sure the social pressure of that convention would hold strong for people of our generation, but I’m not so sure about younger generations, who I think are likely to be more liberal minded?

To be clear, and again I might be misreading you. You're saying you don't rate Barden Fell much anyway (and presumably would be fine if it too had a documentation ban)and if Grinah is it bit like it you think people aren't missing much because you don't need a guide to admire the view? 

I love Barden it’s a great spot, but it’s not hugely expansive in terms of the problems there, so yes as a thought experiment, if it is a good comparison for Grinah (although sounds like an easier and lot shorter walk), then I really like the idea of it as unrecorded. Although in my mind I think I would still be led by how we talk about climbing on established crags, which is what I assume happens at Grinah? Eg:
“Oh you went up to Simon’s Seat, did you climb that big obvious arête you see on the way in?”
“Yes great climbing, I though about 6C, you?”
“Yes sounds about right.”

Or is there an omertà for Grinah?:
“Oh you went up to Grinah, you climb some good stuff?”
“I can neither confirm nor deny I went to Grinah and I can neither confirm nor deny I climbed a great 7b+ prow.”

[cheque]

Here it is

Snake Summit parking

Derwent Valley parking (weekdays only)

[Will Hunt]

When we talk about Barden Fell climbing, are we just talking about Simon's Seat, Lord's Seat, and Hen Stones or are we also talking about: Sartree Crag; Cloven Crag; The southern Carncliff Top outliers (Asick Brow, the Eyes Boulder etc); Carncliff Top main; Earl Seat; Noon Crag; South Nab; Dale Head; Spirit of Kinder and surrounding boulders; Long Crag; the Great Pock Stones; the Little Pock Stones; Little Simon's Seat; the Wall Boulders; Rochard Crags; Aked's Clough; Pike Stones; and Whinhaugh?

There might be some more that have slipped my mind. If so, that's a lot of climbing!

I understand the appeal of a crag that lets people figure it out for themselves, but a crag like Grinah is the last place I'd do it because it sounds like it's a massively underused resource that needs all the help it can get. If the access is so prohibitive then it's realistically never going to become busy. You'd be better off having your undocumented venue as some moderately good venue in a moderately accessible location.

The motivation for developing things, that is the process of naming and sharing the details, doesn't have to be linked solely to the ego. Names are important for giving a climb an identity, and it is that identity that (in part) makes the climbing of them so worthwhile. When a climb has an identify it becomes so much more than just rock. It makes me a bit sad to think that there's a venue as good as Barden Fell where the climbs are so unloved that nobody has even thought them worth a name.

Get it documented. There'll still be nobody that goes and it'll be a better venue for those that do go. To compensate, the next time somebody pulls back the ivy curtain from some limestone choss you can make that your nameless venue.