[Smith42]

For those old enough to remember a time before guide books, you either made up your own problems or were shown new problems by your mates.  Back in the 90/00s I was shown Titfield Thunderbolt at Brimham (possibly by Martin Parker?) starting with the chip for right hand, rockover to rail then bunch feet up and dyno to the top.  Then the TC guide book came out with a picture of someone using this sequence. 

However with a bit of cunning it can also be climbed by a more techy method without the chip.  Equally cool, similar grade but it has a very different feel to it. 

Yesterday I did the sit with a massive span from the low rail to the chip then burly move to sort feet out and in to the stand, adds quite a bit to the stand for me as I'm close to my limit on the first two moves.  However when I went to log on UKC the sit start gets described as without the chip.  I don't know where this 'rule' has come from or if it is the crag moderator describing their preferred method.

So do we think its worth listing as two separate problems? similar to the Keel/Real Keel/Bulb at Almscliff.

[User deactivated.]

I can't remember which hold the chip is but the rules are all over the place for this problem. From a stand some people say you have to start further down on the worse bit of the hold. Why would you start on the worse bit of the same hold if the good bit can be reached fine off 1 pad?

From a sit I can pull straight up into the stand and reach the good bit of the hold. That means if i'm forced to start on the worse bit for the stand then it's possibly harder than the sit!

It's just easier for the tall.

edit: unless the 'good part of the hold' im referring to is the chip then just ignore me.

[andy_e]

The chip is to the right in the horizontal seam, about halfway between the Titfiled flake and Chicken.

[36chambers]

The chip is to the right in the horizontal seam, about halfway between the Titfiled flake and Chicken.

I used the chip as the RH start hold for Chicken and went straight up from there. So my vote would be that the chip should belong to Chicken and not be used for Titfield, although I don't know how Titfield was originally done.

Actually, I've just looked through the guidebooks and Duff and Dunning don't mention the chip for either problem, but YMC vol. 1 does say "No chip!" for Titfield and "start on the crimp and chip" for Chicken.

I happen to be the current moderator for Brimham, but I haven't made any changes to any descriptions.

Finally, I wouldn't trust Martin Parker's beta for anything . I've been searching for that bomber, inside flag, knee bar on Jess's Roof for years now.

[Will Hunt]

Interesting question. For the select guide this is what I have (can't remember if I edited this from the original YG text):

The Titfield Thunderbolt 7B **
A popular favourite. Start on the lowest holds of the rail and build up to a big pop for the top. No chip! Sit start: f7B+.


I've always found the rule about the chip to be unusual because it's never occurred to me to use the chip, since it seemed so far off to the right.

My personal, and no doubt highly unpopular, view: the problem is a complete mess and it's because it's been in guidebooks at 7B+. That pushes us into thinking of it as a difficult problem and the rules all arise from a futile attempt to keep it difficult. In reality, and this will upset lots of people who can't bounce, the problem is a 3-star 6B+ pulling on with whatever comes to hand (though I've seen people stack three mats, one of which was one of those Ocun bouncy castles, to reach the best holds and it made me sick to my stomach). If you pull on chipless from the lowest holds on that rail then it makes it 7A and the hardest part is pulling on. However if I put that grade in a book it'll lead to a serious health hazard as people fall to the floor, frothing at the mouth, convulsing, voiding their bowels all over the pads, moaning "MuH 7B+! I'vE GoT tO gEt MuH 7B+".

Also if you were to put it in at 7A then you'd have to regrade Whisky Galore (something that needs doing anyway in my opinion) and that would lead to lots of people from London not ever doing a 7A and I'm not sure I need that on my conscience.

[User deactivated.]

Will, I thought starting from the good holds (off 1 pad) was worth 7A+. The only other dynamic things I can think of around the same grade are Who Are We Without Moon and the pinch dyno at Caley. All felt around the same difficulty to me. (WAWWM is easily the best). 

Agreed Whiskey Galore is a joke at 7A. Yorkshire's Green Traverse.

[csl]

Also if you were to put it in at 7A then you'd have to regrade Whisky Galore (something that needs doing anyway in my opinion) and that would lead to lots of people from London not ever doing a 7A and I'm not sure I need that on my conscience.

 

[Will Hunt]

Will, I thought starting from the good holds (off 1 pad) was worth 7A+. The only other dynamic things I can think of around the same grade are Who Are We Without Moon and the pinch dyno at Caley. All felt around the same difficulty to me. (WAWWM is easily the best). 

Can't comment on the Pinch Dyno as haven't done it but I can't agree with WAWWM - a more tenuous set up and a more slippery pop.

I would like to rectify WG but not sure what to. I'm not going to get there myself to repeat it before proof reading is finalised and the only time I've done it was in 2010 when I had very little experience at the grade. Comments on UKC suggest 6C wouldn't be miles off.

[spidermonkey09]

There seems a disconnect between Smith42 saying on ukc you would need the blinkers on to not use the chip, and everyone else saying using the chip would be illogical. Which is right? Even then, its not illogical to eliminate obvious chips on some problems even if they are right where you want them, eg T Crack.

[Will Hunt]

There seems a disconnect between Smith42 saying on ukc you would need the blinkers on to not use the chip, and everyone else saying using the chip would be illogical. Which is right? Even then, its not illogical to eliminate obvious chips on some problems even if they are right where you want them, eg T Crack.

I think it depends whether you're talking about the sit or the stand. For the stand the chip is off to the right and seems to pull you away from where the obvious footholds are. For the sit it might be more logical. I haven't tried to do the sit into the chip, but I find the chipless sit start to Titfield very hard. I seem to remember some real finger strength being necessary to maul the holds while you shifted around on feet that weren't really in the right place. Getting into that nice chip might change all of that.

[36chambers]

I would like to rectify WG but not sure what to. I'm not going to get there myself to repeat it before proof reading is finalised and the only time I've done it was in 2010 when I had very little experience at the grade. Comments on UKC suggest 6C wouldn't be miles off.

No worries, I've got you. I've done Whisky Galore 20 times (yes I was keeping count) and 7A is fine. You are welcome.

[dunnyg]

I found who are we without moon steady, and can't touch titfield after multiple sessions. Saying titfield is 6b+ is just another will hunt grade wankathon. A problem exactly in my style (crimpy pops) and I find it easy? Surprise!  I also found whisky galore nails until I fell up it 

[Bonjoy]

It's such an ugly big chip. The world would be a better place if someone filled it in. I've always found it odd that chipping is a total anathema, yet chipped holds, unless they get filled in very quickly, are treated as legitimate parts of the rock to be conserved.
If there was a voting option - "Fill in the chip, problem solved!" that would get my vote.

[36chambers]

Unfortunately, I think filling in that chip would make Chicken impossible. It's hard enough even with such a big hold.

[Bradders]

Always treated the chip as being out on this, remember the sit feeling wonderfully tenuous and balancey which I imagine using the chip would ruin. My vague memory of it is that the chip was a long way rightwards as well which this:

with a massive span from the low rail to the chip

Would seem to validate. Surely that means it's probably unusable for most people simply as it's out of reach?

Grade wise I thought the sit was solid at 7C. Never even tried using the chip on it so no idea how that compares.

In reality, and this will upset lots of people who can't bounce, the problem is a 3-star 6B+

This is utter nonsense.

Also if you were to put it in at 7A then you'd have to regrade Whisky Galore (something that needs doing anyway in my opinion) and that would lead to lots of people from London not ever doing a 7A and I'm not sure I need that on my conscience.

This is more reasonable.

[Bonjoy]

In reality, and this will upset lots of people who can't bounce, the problem is a 3-star 6B+

This is utter nonsense.

Agree.
Tall guy finds dyno easy shocker  . This is why grades should be for the average height, and it's dangerous to let Will Hunt loose with the crayons.

[Fiend]

So we've got chipped holds, arbitrary starting hand positions and rules, grades all over the place, confirmed morpho problem, and Will's usual "avant garde performance art" re-grading....

Welcome to Yorkshire 

[Will Hunt]

Thanks, all, for contributing to my list of Climbers Who Can't Bounce, coming to the UKB wiki soon.

[teestub]

Not sure I’ve ever seen you bounce, just stand up at a medium pace and reach 😂

[dunnyg]

I do deserve to be on this list to be fair.

[Bonjoy]

Show me anyone over 45 who isn't on this list!

[Duncan campbell]

Show me anyone over 45 who isn't on this list!

I'd say your silver wad squad are all pretty bouncy Bonjoy... Maybe not super comp-style but Bob Smith is way better on that stuff than a lot of people (myself very much included).

[spidermonkey09]

FTFY 

Bob Smith is way better on that stuff than a lot of people

[Bonjoy]

That's true, both of you

[Smith42]

Having thought about this some more, grade debate aside, it is a worthwhile problem with the chip especially the sit start so would be nice if it listed apart.   

Grade debate, I have climbed this and Whisky Galore to often to be truly objective, however I will say that if we were in font then WG would be 6A+.

For me TF sit with chip is in the 7B region for my height and hip flexibility and I have seen several of stronger climbers fail miserably on the sit so less than this would seem harsh.