[lagerstarfish]

Some sort of collaboration between The Slendy Show and Noel Deyzel might be what's required

[Fiend]

Thanks for the recommendations so far. I would definitely appreciate any more specific recommendations of professional coaches if anyone has them. Obviously I'll be discussing things in advance with anyone I contact!

So far it's John Kettle, Andy McVittie, and as below Ste Mac.

I saw a coach once for a day about 12 years ago, it was me and a mate who’d had the day booked as a present from his wife. We met the coach in the peak and went climbing in cheedale. He asked us to have a go on various routes some within our grade and some just a little too hard for us to do in a sesh.
Was quite impressive how quickly the coach picked up on various aspects of our natural strengths/weaknesses, both in movement technique and fitness/power. He gave good feedback and advice during the day and then followed up a couple of days later with an email record of his observations, plus recommendations for how to train our weaknesses. Mine were basically - practise hip flexibility by sticking my toe up on something progressively higher and pretending it’s a small foothold that I need to step up on while keeping hips in close, and do lots of foot-on campussing to improve my PE.

It worked, and now my weaknesses hold me back on higher grades. Coach was Steve Mc-something..

That initial assessment (by an experienced and neutral coach) sounds like what I'm after, along with further follow-ups, and preferably the option to suggest "Lots of foot-on campussing will actually have you giving up on training in despair and sticking to Range HVS 4cs for the rest of your life, here are some less effective but possibly more fun alternatives that may be more suitable" or even just some tips tricks and tweaks to make foot-on campussing tolerable - for example.

Honestly Fiend, I think taking on board * the advice here (some similarity with Bechtel, but more applicable to your specific goal) and finding a really good board you can work at like the Chapel 45* will take you a long way towards achieving what you’re after.

I'm definitely taking on board the advice of actual recommendations, but also the advice to be constantly challenged, and to use a board (partly because both of those are things I've started doing already). That video from DMac, which I did watch the first time around, is very nice and inspiring, including because he is clear at the start that it's good if the training is inspiring in itself, because then you're going to be motivated to do it (which is exactly what I alluded to in my initial request). I'm definitely happy to keep using a board, but there's lots of potential guidance and tweaking I would like to know about that training and indeed training overall.

[petejh]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

At the risk of embarrassing Fiend..

I think what you've pointed out is exactly why he has good technique. I.e. A climber who is able to recognise that a 'flamboyant cut loose and swing up' is a perfectly fine way to do a sequence while also being very good at shuffling upwards on tottering death choss ledges is undoubtedly someone who has a good repertoire of climbing technique. Compare to someone focussed mostly on bouldering or sport climbing who's got strong arms/fingers and is great on crimps or compression. Put them on tottering death choss and watch them turn into the world's shittest climber.

I've watched Fiend do bouncy dynamic high-step techniquey stuff on a technical groove proj I bolted in a granite quarry. Seems like a style he's well suited to - that kind of Dawes-esque quick hobbit-movement. Yet he's also decent at climbing slowly and carefully on collapsing ledges which demands balanced application of load and slow methodical progression.

This is a person who just needs some confidence in his forearm fitness!

[Will Hunt]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

At the risk of embarrassing Fiend..

I think what you've pointed out is exactly why he has good technique. I.e. A climber who is able to recognise that a 'flamboyant cut loose and swing up' is a perfectly fine way to do a sequence while also being very good at shuffling upwards on tottering death choss ledges is undoubtedly someone who has a good repertoire of climbing technique. Compare to someone focussed mostly on bouldering or sport climbing who's got strong arms/fingers and is great on crimps or compression. Put them on tottering death choss and watch them turn into the world's shittest climber.

I've watched Fiend do bouncy dynamic high-step techniquey stuff on a technical groove proj I bolted in a granite quarry. Seems like a style he's well suited to - that kind of Dawes-esque quick hobbit-movement. Yet he's also decent at climbing slowly and carefully on collapsing ledges which demands balanced application of load and slow methodical progression.

This is a person who just needs some confidence in his forearm fitness!

No doubt it's nice to climb like that when you've got lots in reserve, but being good at that sort of thing isn't what's holding him back from whatever his goals might be.
I'll grant you that me and Matt are different climbers, geared in different ways, but I dropped the move on Metal Guru that I'm talking about on redpoint because I was too gassed to do it. I don't know if Fiend ever got to that point but it is definitely possible that he would have been too gassed. The point is that he had no plan to do that top bit efficiently, and ultimately if you want to explore the limits of your body's capabilities on steep limestone you're not going to do it by Dawesing around without your feet on.

Having read John's book, I can tell you that if Fiend goes to him he's going to get told to use his feet more. Maybe not when he's on his best behaviour and locked into death-shuffle mode, but definitely when he's safe and sound on bolts and switches off the part of the brain that tells him to keep his feet on.

[webbo]

Is this time to get the out. When a tall skinny bloke is telling a short stocky bloke how to climb.

[petejh]

I’m happy to entirely disagree with tall skinny bloke and leave it there as neither of us are coaches.

[Will Hunt]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

[petejh]

 

[SA Chris]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

except when it isn't.

[Duma]

Climbing slowly is often less efficient than using momentum, especially if you have the movement skills to match ;-)

[jwi]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

Not always, unless these chaps are all mistaken

https://youtu.be/76v9jvW56vw?t=29

https://youtu.be/5OFtEZXEw8E?t=26

https://youtu.be/lOfpAd0St7Q?t=113

[lagerstarfish]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

If we wanted "efficient", we'd use the easy way up round the back

[webbo]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

If we wanted "efficient", we'd use the easy way up round the back

Tough crowd tonight.

[lagerstarfish]

 

obviously

[MischaHY]

An experience I've had over the last few years is that training can be climbing with just a little structure added, providing you are willing to try hard and fail a lot.

IMO the reason something like foot-on campusing is so effective is because it removes the actual 'climbing' element whilst still replicating the movement and positions to a given extent. IMO this helps because some people are far less willing to induce failure whilst climbing because it can be very frustrating, whereas foot-on campusing removes the climbing element and allows people to simply try hard until they can't anymore. Ultimately this represents a large part of what most training is trying to achieve (again, IMO) which is to consistently elicit a max effort either directly before failure (fingerboarding) or purposefully followed by it (max bouldering, power endurance). If you can take a long term mindset and willingness to consistently fail into your sessions, then you can train very effectively with relatively little structure. Dave Mac talks a lot about how important he finds it to be consistently failing at max effort during training and I've personally found that really rings true for me as well.

For example when I do a board session, I'll generally build up through a pyramid of 5-8 problems which are steadily harder but generally repeatable within a few goes. I'll then move onto a project which I likely won't be able to do that session, possibly not even for several sessions. I've found this means I'll be working at a very high intensity and failing a lot but also making progress with individual moves, linking 1-3 moves or eventually doing the problem. Once I notice that I've stopped having quality efforts on the project, I go back down the pyramid that I did before (think I found this session online somewhere). I really like this session because it feels very like 'normal' climbing but actually has a lot of elements of good training i.e. scaled progression, max efforts, failure and a focus on quality rather than quantity. I've realised that sessions like foot-on campusing are actually quite risky for me as they often lead to over-fatiguing and injury because I have a tendency to do too many sets or push too hard and anecdotally since I stopped doing them and focused on more 'climbing-like' sessions I get way less finger tweaks. With this in mind I prefer to train endurance on circuits because it's harder to absolutely ruin yourself on them as things like body tension tend to run out before things get tweaky.

The situation where I think focus on quality is most important is fingerboarding and I've had really good results the last couple of years from backing down the intensity slightly and simply doing consistent max hangs without trying to drag out those last few percentage points. This is certainly more boring but does still work and feels far safer - again, I previously had a tendency to get finger tweaks from wanting to work too hard in this format. In the end it's only about 20 minutes for a max hang session so still manageable twice a week without inducing massive internal hate.

Oh, and another vote for Andy or John because both seem like the kind of people you want to work with which is likely the most important element as you'll actually be willing to listen to them. Apologies for the essay but hopefully some of it is relevant 

[Fiend]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

[duncan]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

You're quite prone to injury and this may be one of your bigger barriers to making physiological improvements (I know the feeling). Good coaching needs to take this into account and include strategies to minimise your time off. Counterintuitively, this might be a particularly good time to see someone comfortable operating in the overlap between training and rehabilitation.

[teestub]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

Have you had a diagnosis from a physio for the cause of the golfer’s elbow and appropriate treatment exercises? From my own experience and that of friends, there seem to be a lot of different issues that all present in a similar way, but need different recovery strategies.

[mrjonathanr]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

You're quite prone to injury and this may be one of your bigger barriers to making physiological improvements (I know the feeling). Good coaching needs to take this into account and include strategies to minimise your time off. Counterintuitively, this might be a particularly good time to see someone comfortable operating in the overlap between training and rehabilitation.

You could have written that about me, Duncan. Which is why I am going to see Andy tomorrow Fiend. For golfers elbow, which has just flared up. 

Maybe as Teestub also suggests, a bit more looking into this is a smart move.

[Fiend]

FFS, so that's why I couldn't get an appointment on Monday

Teestub, recent re-cause was some fingerboarding without warming up enough, plus very recent aggravation by bouldering outside in the cold without warming up. Yes I am a fucking disgrace at doing that and this might be a rare area where otherwise entirely unhelpful armchair personality assassinations are actually relevant for a change.  Original cause was tweaking it on a purple problem on the comp wall at The Works in spring 2008 with Duncan fucking Disorderly, then not resting / rehabbing nearly enough. Was on and off chronic-but-manageable until 2018 then disappeared within a week after having a reflexology session (for my guts ofc) that found "a strong indication of disorder in my upper left limb", make what you will of that. No recurrence despite a lot of physical pushing until this summer's fingerboarding cock-up.

[teestub]

Thanks Fiend, should have been more specific with my post. I’m not a physio but, as I understand, what it generically called ‘golfer’s elbow’ can actually be direct aggravation of the tendon attachment, but can also be due to postural issues in the shoulder, muscle imbalance in the shoulder, tightness in upper arm muscles, tightness in lower arm muscles, etc. I know 4 or 5 people (including myself) who have had similar symptoms but requiring different rehab/strengthening. Sounds like you know what’s up with yours and the right way to get it back under control.

[Fultonius]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

And mental coaching would probably help The Fiend with the negative self-belief that he has. "I can't follow a training plan. My power to weight is shit. I wish I was good at being skinny. I'm not going well at the moment it's these problems that are soft. I wish I had a longer neck. I wish I had a bigger cock. blah blah blah".
Read what you've written - you're setting out from the start all the stuff you can't do. I found it very inspirational to hear MacLeod say that he just decided one day that he was going to complete his training plan, and that as soon as he did this he realised that he could climb the things he dreamed of climbing if he could only decide to do what was necessary to get there (or words to that effect).

Bloody inefficient swinging about, slapping heels all over the place. Kids these days:

https://youtu.be/O6KKSjutlyg?t=372

[Paul B]

I mean that certainly bears a striking resemblance to Metal Guru... 

[mrjonathanr]

Jibé showing his excellent footwork.

[James Malloch]

An experience I've had over the last few years is that training can be climbing with just a little structure added, providing you are willing to try hard and fail a lot.

I’ve found that out this year both on the board and outdoors.

This year for me has been some board sessions (not loads), early season bouldering, some sport and more recently bouldering again.

In all of these I’ve found things which are hard but within reach. Basically steeper bouldering where I know that 99% of the time I’m going to fail. But each session linking an extra move or finding I’m a bit stronger so can hold on more to refine foot positions etc.

Nothing I’ve done has felt like training at all, but with the exception of sport climbing, every session has been super fun, trying hard and failing a lot.

I’m feeling as strong as I ever have and by keeping the sessions short I’ve managed to avoid injury so far which I’ve not managed in the past.