[Fiend]

I want to see if I can improve the physical side of my climbing a bit (since the most important thing as you get older is to keep getting stronger and stronger and smash out those strength test PBs), and have decided the best way is to set myself up as a target for public humiliation on here for everyone to mock me, specifically suggest unsuitable advice, tell me I'm doing it wrong, etc etc, let's see if we can be big and brave and resist doing that eh  . But on the off chance anyone is actually able to help...

I would like recommendations for climbing coaches who could help me improve how I train for the physical side of climbing (strength, power, endurance, etc etc, plus injury avoidance, recovery, maybe even nutrition timing etc), and specifically work within the context of the physical issues I have, plus my general intolerance for extremely rigid and boring barrows-style plans.

I need someone who can give me general advice, guidance and concepts that will work for me in particular, and regular monitoring / checking-up on potential progress and issues I have with it. I'd prefer someone who is within an hour of so of Manchester so I could hopefully meet at a wall for check-ups / analysis.


What I do NOT want:
1. Anyone who says "yes your power to weight could be improved, do loads of CV and lose weight" because this is not physically possible.
2. Anyone who says "yes your power to weight could be improved, go on this wacky keto diet and lose weight" because I'm not prepared to risk feeling sick and ill all the time with my digestion.
3. Any extremely rigid round-peg-square-hole Lattice type plan.
4. Any long-distance "buy this PDF of a 16 week specific untailored plan and get on with it" malarkey.

YES I fucking well know that some of these, especially the barrows-level snore-fest training, could be the most optimum, but if I'm going to despise it and not stick with it, there's absolutely no point in suggesting it. A training method that is 50% effective but I can stick with 100% of the time is much better than a training method that is 100% effective but I can only force myself to do 25% of the time.

Any helpful suggestions appreciated.

[UnkArl]

Gresh

[Fiend]

Who? Is he part of "Lattice" or "ClimbGB"?

[abarro81]

It strikes me that you understand very little about what coaches will generally already know, how I train (the approach doesn't need to be particularly rigid), or how remote but personalised training plans can work (again, can be very non rigid with a good coach). So I won't suggest anyone because you'd probably be a dismissive PITA client 

[Fiend]

If you'd like to help out, feel free to explain / educate a bit more about what I don't understand. As for the coaches, I'm sure if I get in touch with someone and they think I'd be an unsuitable client, that they could suggest that themselves.

[abarro81]

Don't start nuthin won't be nuthin...

[shark]

John Kettle

[duncan]

I've only seen one coach, John Kettle, who I thought was very good and would see again if there was less distance between us. It was a movement-focused session at my request but he pointed out some physiological issues unprompted and I'm sure he'd be capable of covering what you're after.

The challenge, as we've discussed, is finding someone able to tailor their assessment and advice to your specific aims and needs. Many coaches (and therapist - its a similar role) have their way. If their way happens to fit then everyone is happy, but it often doesn't...

Different people have different attitudes to remote learning. It's not for me, either as a provider or client/pupil/patient.

[shurt]

Andrew McVittie is a great physio. He does coaching as well although never used him for that but he is a really good egg which I think counts for a lot. He treated me via zoom during lockdown and it worked really well. His business is called process physiotherapy.

Worth an email or two,  he's based in the Lakes

[mrjonathanr]

John K us in the Lakes, Shurt, but Andrew works out of Boulder Uk in Preston. At least I hope he does, that’s where my appt with him in a week is taking place.

Pretty impressed with him via emails so far, was going to suggest he might be good/in driving distance for you Fiend.

Alternatively just join the Chapel and then you can bugger your elbows in no time, líke me.

[teestub]

If you want to read something (rather than seeing someone) that would seem to tick a lot of boxes in terms of lack of rigidity, and also give you a basis of understanding in the different facets of training, then I thought Bechtel’s Logical Progression was good for this.

[shurt]

Andrew works out of Boulder Uk in Preston. At least I hope he does, that’s where my appt with him in a week is taking place.

Sorry yep you're right so ideal for Fiend

[Fiend]

Cheers. I know Biscuit already and have had some fun days out with him, and indeed saw him as a physio for golfer's elbow last year.

Kettle could be a good option despite being based in the Lakes, Kendal Wall is 1:30 at quiet times.




P.S. Abarro81, I should point out that although my tone was irreverent and banterous, it wasn't mocking you nor that sort of focused training plan, it was mocking it's likely lack of suitability for myself. TBH I wish I was the sort of person who had the self-discipline and boredom threshold to do, and benefit from, very specific and methodical training.

[spidermonkey09]

 Haven't used him for coaching but another vote for Andy at Boulder UK. If his communication is the same for his coaching as his physio I think he'd be spot on.

Edit, just saw you already know him but worth leaving for info.

[Fultonius]

Cheers. I know Biscuit already and have had some fun days out with him, and indeed saw him as a physio for golfer's elbow last year.

Kettle could be a good option despite being based in the Lakes, Kendal Wall is 1:30 at quiet times.




P.S. Abarro81, I should point out that although my tone was irreverent and banterous, it wasn't mocking you nor that sort of focused training plan, it was mocking it's likely lack of suitability for myself. TBH I wish I was the sort of person who had the self-discipline and boredom threshold to do, and benefit from, very specific and methodical training.

Have you considered some mental / life coaching to explore your self-inflicted barriers to other forms of training?

"It's not for me" and "I can't stick to X,Y,Z" will clearly be based on your life experience and "knowing thyself", but that doesn't mean there's no room for change.

Perhaps exploring your own inner barriers might be more fruitful? Or help in tandem?

[shark]

If I was to write a customised programme for Fiend (sorry, you can’t afford me) then to get him in the right mindset it would start with: “Imagine you are the Orc warrior champion of the Kingdom of Esoterica. To save the kingdom you have to gain the strength to overthrow the Lord of the Trolls and the endurance to chase down the Giant Mangoat up the treacherous sheer cliffs of Gordalia. This will involve personal hardship and suffering accompanied by the soundtrack of loud thrash metal”

[Wood FT]

I’ll coach you pal. What are your aims?

[Fiend]

If I was to write a customised programme for Fiend (sorry, you can’t afford me) then to get him in the right mindset it would start with: “Imagine you are the Orc warrior champion of the Kingdom of Esoterica. To save the kingdom you have to gain the strength to overthrow the Lord of the Trolls and the endurance to chase down the Giant Mangoat up the treacherous sheer cliffs of Gordalia. This will involve personal hardship and suffering accompanied by the soundtrack of loud thrash metal”

Now we're talking!! How much belaying on Raven Tor choss / lockpicking combo-cracking do I have to do to get your rates down??

[Hoseyb]

Another bump for kettle, however if we do ever get to actually climb this winter I'll be happy to give some feedback. Again I'm primarily a movement coach, but as a self confessed loather of treadmill style training I have a few ideas how to beast up in a less monotonous style.

[TobyD]

P.S. Abarro81, I should point out that although my tone was irreverent and banterous, it wasn't mocking you nor that sort of focused training plan, it was mocking it's likely lack of suitability for myself. TBH I wish I was the sort of person who had the self-discipline and boredom threshold to do, and benefit from, very specific and methodical training.

Reading this thread with some interest, since I'm considering coaching myself, before I give up climbing altogether; although given how shit I am at cycling this isn't that much of a risk.

Fiend, Alex really isn't that prescriptive with training, sure he's obsessive, weird etc, but which climbers aren't?
You might be surprised if you dipped into training in a similar way I think. I've seen a lot of people noticeably less successful than Alex train in a very prescriptive manner, and not get better possibly because being willing to adapt and constantly challenge yourself is surely the route to improvement rather than trying to treat your body as a machine, which it isn't. The exact number of reps or seconds is very unlikely to matter in the long run compared to being willing to constantly fail, and having the application to adapt and learn. This is definitely what I'm worst at!

[lagerstarfish]

It shouldn't be too complicated for UKB to put together a playlist of heckling and supportive advice videos.
Put the list on shuffle.
Done.

[petejh]

I saw a coach once for a day about 12 years ago, it was me and a mate who’d had the day booked as a present from his wife. We met the coach in the peak and went climbing in cheedale. He asked us to have a go on various routes some within our grade and some just a little too hard for us to do in a sesh.
Was quite impressive how quickly the coach picked up on various aspects of our natural strengths/weaknesses, both in movement technique and fitness/power. He gave good feedback and advice during the day and then followed up a couple of days later with an email record of his observations, plus recommendations for how to train our weaknesses. Mine were basically - practise hip flexibility by sticking my toe up on something progressively higher and pretending it’s a small foothold that I need to step up on while keeping hips in close, and do lots of foot-on campussing to improve my PE.

It worked, and now my weaknesses hold me back on higher grades. Coach was Steve Mc-something..

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb. Boring foot-on campussing it is for you.

[mrjonathanr]

Honestly Fiend, I think taking on board * the advice here (some similarity with Bechtel, but more applicable to your specific goal) and finding a really good board you can work at like the Chapel 45* will take you a long way towards achieving what you’re after.


* unintentional pun

[Fiend]

Thank you for the further replies.

Fiend, Alex really isn't that prescriptive with training, sure he's obsessive, weird etc, but which climbers aren't?
You might be surprised if you dipped into training in a similar way I think. I've seen a lot of people noticeably less successful than Alex train in a very prescriptive manner, and not get better possibly because being willing to adapt and constantly challenge yourself is surely the route to improvement rather than trying to treat your body as a machine, which it isn't. The exact number of reps or seconds is very unlikely to matter in the long run compared to being willing to constantly fail, and having the application to adapt and learn. This is definitely what I'm worst at!

I'm just going by what I've read on here including from the horses mouth. I'm pretty sure there's a full range of training protocols available from very prescriptive ones with timed pure rung-based training sessions on an overall weekly/monthly plan, to more flexible ones about general concepts and training principles. The latter will simply work better for me. HOWEVER I do agree with the importance of "being willing to adapt and constantly challenge yourself" - that's exactly why I started doing inimical stuff like the Moonboard, which I took to like a cat to water, and also doing linked circuits on the Depot stamina board, which felt perversely sadomasochistic but when I felt the same sort of pump on routes outside, it inspired me to continue. I think further challenging my body could be useful, hence exactly why I'm looking for a professional to guide me with that. BUT there has got to be a balance with what I personally am able to tolerate mentally overall.

MRJR, will look at that video in a bit, ta.

[Will Hunt]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

And mental coaching would probably help The Fiend with the negative self-belief that he has. "I can't follow a training plan. My power to weight is shit. I wish I was good at being skinny. I'm not going well at the moment it's these problems that are soft. I wish I had a longer neck. I wish I had a bigger cock. blah blah blah".
Read what you've written - you're setting out from the start all the stuff you can't do. I found it very inspirational to hear MacLeod say that he just decided one day that he was going to complete his training plan, and that as soon as he did this he realised that he could climb the things he dreamed of climbing if he could only decide to do what was necessary to get there (or words to that effect).

[lagerstarfish]

Some sort of collaboration between The Slendy Show and Noel Deyzel might be what's required

[Fiend]

Thanks for the recommendations so far. I would definitely appreciate any more specific recommendations of professional coaches if anyone has them. Obviously I'll be discussing things in advance with anyone I contact!

So far it's John Kettle, Andy McVittie, and as below Ste Mac.

I saw a coach once for a day about 12 years ago, it was me and a mate who’d had the day booked as a present from his wife. We met the coach in the peak and went climbing in cheedale. He asked us to have a go on various routes some within our grade and some just a little too hard for us to do in a sesh.
Was quite impressive how quickly the coach picked up on various aspects of our natural strengths/weaknesses, both in movement technique and fitness/power. He gave good feedback and advice during the day and then followed up a couple of days later with an email record of his observations, plus recommendations for how to train our weaknesses. Mine were basically - practise hip flexibility by sticking my toe up on something progressively higher and pretending it’s a small foothold that I need to step up on while keeping hips in close, and do lots of foot-on campussing to improve my PE.

It worked, and now my weaknesses hold me back on higher grades. Coach was Steve Mc-something..

That initial assessment (by an experienced and neutral coach) sounds like what I'm after, along with further follow-ups, and preferably the option to suggest "Lots of foot-on campussing will actually have you giving up on training in despair and sticking to Range HVS 4cs for the rest of your life, here are some less effective but possibly more fun alternatives that may be more suitable" or even just some tips tricks and tweaks to make foot-on campussing tolerable - for example.

Honestly Fiend, I think taking on board * the advice here (some similarity with Bechtel, but more applicable to your specific goal) and finding a really good board you can work at like the Chapel 45* will take you a long way towards achieving what you’re after.

I'm definitely taking on board the advice of actual recommendations, but also the advice to be constantly challenged, and to use a board (partly because both of those are things I've started doing already). That video from DMac, which I did watch the first time around, is very nice and inspiring, including because he is clear at the start that it's good if the training is inspiring in itself, because then you're going to be motivated to do it (which is exactly what I alluded to in my initial request). I'm definitely happy to keep using a board, but there's lots of potential guidance and tweaking I would like to know about that training and indeed training overall.

[petejh]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

At the risk of embarrassing Fiend..

I think what you've pointed out is exactly why he has good technique. I.e. A climber who is able to recognise that a 'flamboyant cut loose and swing up' is a perfectly fine way to do a sequence while also being very good at shuffling upwards on tottering death choss ledges is undoubtedly someone who has a good repertoire of climbing technique. Compare to someone focussed mostly on bouldering or sport climbing who's got strong arms/fingers and is great on crimps or compression. Put them on tottering death choss and watch them turn into the world's shittest climber.

I've watched Fiend do bouncy dynamic high-step techniquey stuff on a technical groove proj I bolted in a granite quarry. Seems like a style he's well suited to - that kind of Dawes-esque quick hobbit-movement. Yet he's also decent at climbing slowly and carefully on collapsing ledges which demands balanced application of load and slow methodical progression.

This is a person who just needs some confidence in his forearm fitness!

[Will Hunt]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

At the risk of embarrassing Fiend..

I think what you've pointed out is exactly why he has good technique. I.e. A climber who is able to recognise that a 'flamboyant cut loose and swing up' is a perfectly fine way to do a sequence while also being very good at shuffling upwards on tottering death choss ledges is undoubtedly someone who has a good repertoire of climbing technique. Compare to someone focussed mostly on bouldering or sport climbing who's got strong arms/fingers and is great on crimps or compression. Put them on tottering death choss and watch them turn into the world's shittest climber.

I've watched Fiend do bouncy dynamic high-step techniquey stuff on a technical groove proj I bolted in a granite quarry. Seems like a style he's well suited to - that kind of Dawes-esque quick hobbit-movement. Yet he's also decent at climbing slowly and carefully on collapsing ledges which demands balanced application of load and slow methodical progression.

This is a person who just needs some confidence in his forearm fitness!

No doubt it's nice to climb like that when you've got lots in reserve, but being good at that sort of thing isn't what's holding him back from whatever his goals might be.
I'll grant you that me and Matt are different climbers, geared in different ways, but I dropped the move on Metal Guru that I'm talking about on redpoint because I was too gassed to do it. I don't know if Fiend ever got to that point but it is definitely possible that he would have been too gassed. The point is that he had no plan to do that top bit efficiently, and ultimately if you want to explore the limits of your body's capabilities on steep limestone you're not going to do it by Dawesing around without your feet on.

Having read John's book, I can tell you that if Fiend goes to him he's going to get told to use his feet more. Maybe not when he's on his best behaviour and locked into death-shuffle mode, but definitely when he's safe and sound on bolts and switches off the part of the brain that tells him to keep his feet on.

[webbo]

Is this time to get the out. When a tall skinny bloke is telling a short stocky bloke how to climb.

[petejh]

I’m happy to entirely disagree with tall skinny bloke and leave it there as neither of us are coaches.

[Will Hunt]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

[petejh]

 

[SA Chris]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

except when it isn't.

[Duma]

Climbing slowly is often less efficient than using momentum, especially if you have the movement skills to match ;-)

[jwi]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

Not always, unless these chaps are all mistaken

https://youtu.be/76v9jvW56vw?t=29

https://youtu.be/5OFtEZXEw8E?t=26

https://youtu.be/lOfpAd0St7Q?t=113

[lagerstarfish]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

If we wanted "efficient", we'd use the easy way up round the back

[webbo]

FFS. You don't need to be a coach to point out that campussing up stuff is less efficient that actually using your feet.

If we wanted "efficient", we'd use the easy way up round the back

Tough crowd tonight.

[lagerstarfish]

 

obviously

[MischaHY]

An experience I've had over the last few years is that training can be climbing with just a little structure added, providing you are willing to try hard and fail a lot.

IMO the reason something like foot-on campusing is so effective is because it removes the actual 'climbing' element whilst still replicating the movement and positions to a given extent. IMO this helps because some people are far less willing to induce failure whilst climbing because it can be very frustrating, whereas foot-on campusing removes the climbing element and allows people to simply try hard until they can't anymore. Ultimately this represents a large part of what most training is trying to achieve (again, IMO) which is to consistently elicit a max effort either directly before failure (fingerboarding) or purposefully followed by it (max bouldering, power endurance). If you can take a long term mindset and willingness to consistently fail into your sessions, then you can train very effectively with relatively little structure. Dave Mac talks a lot about how important he finds it to be consistently failing at max effort during training and I've personally found that really rings true for me as well.

For example when I do a board session, I'll generally build up through a pyramid of 5-8 problems which are steadily harder but generally repeatable within a few goes. I'll then move onto a project which I likely won't be able to do that session, possibly not even for several sessions. I've found this means I'll be working at a very high intensity and failing a lot but also making progress with individual moves, linking 1-3 moves or eventually doing the problem. Once I notice that I've stopped having quality efforts on the project, I go back down the pyramid that I did before (think I found this session online somewhere). I really like this session because it feels very like 'normal' climbing but actually has a lot of elements of good training i.e. scaled progression, max efforts, failure and a focus on quality rather than quantity. I've realised that sessions like foot-on campusing are actually quite risky for me as they often lead to over-fatiguing and injury because I have a tendency to do too many sets or push too hard and anecdotally since I stopped doing them and focused on more 'climbing-like' sessions I get way less finger tweaks. With this in mind I prefer to train endurance on circuits because it's harder to absolutely ruin yourself on them as things like body tension tend to run out before things get tweaky.

The situation where I think focus on quality is most important is fingerboarding and I've had really good results the last couple of years from backing down the intensity slightly and simply doing consistent max hangs without trying to drag out those last few percentage points. This is certainly more boring but does still work and feels far safer - again, I previously had a tendency to get finger tweaks from wanting to work too hard in this format. In the end it's only about 20 minutes for a max hang session so still manageable twice a week without inducing massive internal hate.

Oh, and another vote for Andy or John because both seem like the kind of people you want to work with which is likely the most important element as you'll actually be willing to listen to them. Apologies for the essay but hopefully some of it is relevant 

[Fiend]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

[duncan]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

You're quite prone to injury and this may be one of your bigger barriers to making physiological improvements (I know the feeling). Good coaching needs to take this into account and include strategies to minimise your time off. Counterintuitively, this might be a particularly good time to see someone comfortable operating in the overlap between training and rehabilitation.

[teestub]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

Have you had a diagnosis from a physio for the cause of the golfer’s elbow and appropriate treatment exercises? From my own experience and that of friends, there seem to be a lot of different issues that all present in a similar way, but need different recovery strategies.

[mrjonathanr]

Well this is all / mostly on hold at the moment as my golfer's elbow has flared up again, not too bad for actual bumbling around but I don't want to push focused training whilst trying to recover from it, so it will be a while until I tackle this, but in the meantime I am doing as much self-analysis (with a bit of help from others) as that injury allows and have come up with some useful thoughts.

You're quite prone to injury and this may be one of your bigger barriers to making physiological improvements (I know the feeling). Good coaching needs to take this into account and include strategies to minimise your time off. Counterintuitively, this might be a particularly good time to see someone comfortable operating in the overlap between training and rehabilitation.

You could have written that about me, Duncan. Which is why I am going to see Andy tomorrow Fiend. For golfers elbow, which has just flared up. 

Maybe as Teestub also suggests, a bit more looking into this is a smart move.

[Fiend]

FFS, so that's why I couldn't get an appointment on Monday

Teestub, recent re-cause was some fingerboarding without warming up enough, plus very recent aggravation by bouldering outside in the cold without warming up. Yes I am a fucking disgrace at doing that and this might be a rare area where otherwise entirely unhelpful armchair personality assassinations are actually relevant for a change.  Original cause was tweaking it on a purple problem on the comp wall at The Works in spring 2008 with Duncan fucking Disorderly, then not resting / rehabbing nearly enough. Was on and off chronic-but-manageable until 2018 then disappeared within a week after having a reflexology session (for my guts ofc) that found "a strong indication of disorder in my upper left limb", make what you will of that. No recurrence despite a lot of physical pushing until this summer's fingerboarding cock-up.

[teestub]

Thanks Fiend, should have been more specific with my post. I’m not a physio but, as I understand, what it generically called ‘golfer’s elbow’ can actually be direct aggravation of the tendon attachment, but can also be due to postural issues in the shoulder, muscle imbalance in the shoulder, tightness in upper arm muscles, tightness in lower arm muscles, etc. I know 4 or 5 people (including myself) who have had similar symptoms but requiring different rehab/strengthening. Sounds like you know what’s up with yours and the right way to get it back under control.

[Fultonius]

Fiend your movement technique is already really good from what I’ve seen of you climb.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"
Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

And mental coaching would probably help The Fiend with the negative self-belief that he has. "I can't follow a training plan. My power to weight is shit. I wish I was good at being skinny. I'm not going well at the moment it's these problems that are soft. I wish I had a longer neck. I wish I had a bigger cock. blah blah blah".
Read what you've written - you're setting out from the start all the stuff you can't do. I found it very inspirational to hear MacLeod say that he just decided one day that he was going to complete his training plan, and that as soon as he did this he realised that he could climb the things he dreamed of climbing if he could only decide to do what was necessary to get there (or words to that effect).

Bloody inefficient swinging about, slapping heels all over the place. Kids these days:

https://youtu.be/O6KKSjutlyg?t=372

[Paul B]

I mean that certainly bears a striking resemblance to Metal Guru... 

[mrjonathanr]

Jibé showing his excellent footwork.

[James Malloch]

An experience I've had over the last few years is that training can be climbing with just a little structure added, providing you are willing to try hard and fail a lot.

I’ve found that out this year both on the board and outdoors.

This year for me has been some board sessions (not loads), early season bouldering, some sport and more recently bouldering again.

In all of these I’ve found things which are hard but within reach. Basically steeper bouldering where I know that 99% of the time I’m going to fail. But each session linking an extra move or finding I’m a bit stronger so can hold on more to refine foot positions etc.

Nothing I’ve done has felt like training at all, but with the exception of sport climbing, every session has been super fun, trying hard and failing a lot.

I’m feeling as strong as I ever have and by keeping the sessions short I’ve managed to avoid injury so far which I’ve not managed in the past.

[Fiend]

Well one of the posters above PMed me to suggest "Get some training coaching now anyway because a good coach should be able to work around injury / rehab, and since you're a fat old crip you're going to be perma-injured from now on so you better be able to fucking deal with it". The latter part might be a vague paraphrase, but I see the logic in what they were saying.

Thus I am about to pull the trigger on an email to Kettle, but if anyone has any other last minute suggestions other than those above, feel free to mention them.

[Duncan Disorderly]

Original cause was tweaking it on a purple problem on the comp wall at The Works in spring 2008 with Duncan fucking Disorderly, then not resting / rehabbing nearly enough.

2008!!!!! Sounds like you're still blaming me! I'll be getting the blame for your terrible dress sense, music taste and ever-increasing waistline next 

[Fiend]

Bit of threadcromancy here but I never got around to correcting some posts before....

Have you considered some mental / life coaching to explore your self-inflicted barriers to other forms of training?

"It's not for me" and "I can't stick to X,Y,Z" will clearly be based on your life experience and "knowing thyself", but that doesn't mean there's no room for change.

Perhaps exploring your own inner barriers might be more fruitful? Or help in tandem?

Self-inflicted isn't true, just as your barriers to enjoying gabber aren't "self-inflicted". We all have different psychological make-ups, different things we like and dislike, different things we tolerate and can't tolerate - just look at the broad spectrum of climbers on here, I doubt Barrows vs Johnny Brown 's personal tastes are "self-inflicted". The rest of your post does make slightly more sense, obviously some of those non-self-inflicted barriers are open to change, depending how fundamental to one's personality they are, and how strong one's motivation to change them is (I know in myself that both of these vary are a lot with different issues). Rigid training may be something I can learn to tolerate more, or maybe it's something that can be adapted to fit into my current tolerance.

I find this a very interesting statement. When I have climbed with Fiend or watched him climb on videos, I've sometimes caught myself thinking "huh. This is guy who wobbles up death choss for a laugh?"

You've climbed with me thrice last year. Once on something right at my limit in my anti-style, and once on a baking hot day where the only things I were really motivated for were dressing on the most ridiculous metal garb I own and anally probing you with the entirely reliable and safe dog stake anchor. Equally the other time mostly involved you going up a slab with so much pedalling it could have been a combined Webbo / Paul B bike ride. The videos of me bouldering are yes me bouldering at my limit and that will involved a variety of techniques that are a bit different to trad slabs and death choss.

Sometimes the Fiend is wont to cut loose for no reason. This happened at Witches, I think, and it was also his preferred sequence for swinging his left leg over and up to a high rockover at the end of the hard climbing on Metal Guru (hint: there's ample footholds to step the feet through nicely and do it static which helps if you're tired at that point - which you probably will be on redpoint). It's a really nice, flamboyant thing to watch but it must be crap for performance.

No doubt it's nice to climb like that when you've got lots in reserve, but being good at that sort of thing isn't what's holding him back from whatever his goals might be.
I'll grant you that me and Matt are different climbers, geared in different ways, but I dropped the move on Metal Guru that I'm talking about on redpoint because I was too gassed to do it. I don't know if Fiend ever got to that point but it is definitely possible that he would have been too gassed. The point is that he had no plan to do that top bit efficiently, and ultimately if you want to explore the limits of your body's capabilities on steep limestone you're not going to do it by Dawesing around without your feet on.

Having read John's book, I can tell you that if Fiend goes to him he's going to get told to use his feet more. Maybe not when he's on his best behaviour and locked into death-shuffle mode, but definitely when he's safe and sound on bolts and switches off the part of the brain that tells him to keep his feet on.

What you're missing is that 1. It's not campussing, it's jumping with my feet, it's specifically to use my legs dynamically and get the power through those. Or it's cutting loose to save time holding on mincing around walking my feet daintily over several footholds. 2. It's a style specifically to be efficient and because I don't have anything in reserve - speed and power through the legs to compensate for lack of power-to-weight overall. It might not look perfectly graceful and elegant to outside observers but that's not the point.

Incidentally this style has been commented on positively by two people with good experience of climber analysis recently.

AND I've had very interesting (if unpleasant) experiences having to climb WITHOUT this style. Due to my knee injury I'm not able to get full range of motion through that leg NOR full strength, and especially NO dynamism and spring. I've had to adapt to climbing more "stepping through nice and static", and this is inhibiting me a lot, making many problems noticeably harder, and in fact I'm sure it contributed to how bad my golfer's elbow felt on returning to very easy climbing. Not being able to push, spring, bounce, scamper, and jump from my legs has meant more pulling through my arms when problems can't be done just with fairly static leg movements.

And mental coaching would probably help The Fiend with the negative self-belief that he has. "I can't follow a training plan. My power to weight is shit. I wish I was good at being skinny. I'm not going well at the moment it's these problems that are soft. I wish I had a longer neck. I wish I had a bigger cock. blah blah blah".
Read what you've written - you're setting out from the start all the stuff you can't do. I found it very inspirational to hear MacLeod say that he just decided one day that he was going to complete his training plan, and that as soon as he did this he realised that he could climb the things he dreamed of climbing if he could only decide to do what was necessary to get there (or words to that effect).

Similar to Puntonious above. All of the first paragraph is nonsense. My OP was just clearing out stuff that will be less helpful to make way for stuff that will be more helpful (which incidentally other respondents got and were capable of suggesting people for). It's not negative self-belief, it's acknowledgment of genuine issues, some of which will be workable, some of which will be best worked around. Maybe I should have listed some stuff I'm good at / suitable for to balance it out

Further Dmac is not me. He runs up Ben Nevis for rest days. He's got the capacity to flick a switch and say "I'm going to complete my training plan", that's great for him. His militant dedication and rigid self-discipline are laudable and extremely effective. For people without that.....maybe it's worth seeking a climbing coach to get something that works for them.


P.S. And yes I know you're online as I've just posted this Will, and may argue back. I'm probably not going to engage much as it's all a bit academic as I am still rehabbing, I will be for a while, and it will be quite a long road back to full fitness. Which, in line with some other posts, I'm hoping to do in a careful and sustainable way to avoid further injuries.