[remus]

Neil has put up a substantial new line Pavey Ark that runs counter to impact day, sounds like an ace piece of climbing. There's a write up on UKC.

https://www.instagram.com/p/CTkjaWkDBgI/

(Teestub posted about it on the bold trad thread but thought it deserves a thread of it's own, not every day a new E11 gets done.)

[SA Chris]

Looks like a path to me.

[SA Chris]

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2021/09/lexicon_e11_7a_-_first_ascent_on_pavey_ark_by_neil_gresham-72872

More plugs than Howdens!

[shurt]

Yes it's a detailed write up but it leaves me cold and sounds like it's been written by a corporate suit rather than a climber...

[erm, sam]

I thought it was pretty interesting actually.

[Danny]

I thought it was alright too. More a nod to all the folk he's leant on to get the job done. Inspiring to see him progressing still.

[Wellsy]

What an absolute masterclass

Seriously though, a real beast, and pushing the boundaries still. Much respect.

[Johnny Brown]

I find it a bit hard to get enthused about hard routes on this wall, Impact Day has to be the least impressive hard route I've ever looked at.

It would be interesting if Neil did go back on Equilibrium to check if it really does feel easier now he's so much better.  The lack of repeats in recent years suggests it might not be one so suited to the modern skillset.

[mark20]

Impact Day has to be the least impressive hard route I've ever looked at.

Interesting you say that (when mentioning Equilibrium in the same post!), how so? The rock is so nice on Pavey you can't go too far wrong surely?
It would be great to see a photo of the wall though, and the lines, as I can't really picture the new line

Good effort from Neil, and I quite enjoyed the in depth write up of the process

[Johnny Brown]

Hmm. Burbage South is one of the bigger grit crags, and Equilibrium a full-height line up an arete. If you consider that unimpressive you're basically writing off the majority of grit routes.

Pavey is a huge mountain crag, the Impact day wall is about 40ft high on the side of a bit of a gully. It is gently overhanging with a slab at the bottom.The wall isn't obvious from afar nor are there any obvious lines. If the slab wasn't there to hit when you fall off (as Neil discusses) you could knock a grade or two off everything. I just thought it was deeply underwhelming, Scafell it ain't. If Pavey wasn't the most accessible mountain crag in the Lakes I doubt these routes would have ever been done.

[Adam Lincoln]

To be fair, the new line is the line of the wall. ID skirts off to edge of crag for a decent rest before coming back in for top hard moves.

[shark]

Steve Mac had a play on it and says it’s really good

[teestub]

Hmm. Burbage South is one of the bigger grit crags, and Equilibrium a full-height line up an arete. If you consider that unimpressive you're basically writing off the majority of grit routes.

Was watching Pearson on Equilibrium last night as I couldn’t remember much about it. It’s a bit of a funny one isn’t it, with the ledge you can sit down on, essentially followed by quite a short techy boulder you can’t fall off. How you begin to compare that in difficulty to this new one when the character is so different, I have no idea.

[Johnny Brown]

Maybe we're witnessing the demonisation of technical bold climbing? Always seemed like the obvious one to try.

[shark]

Was watching Pearson on Equilibrium last night as I couldn’t remember much about it. It’s a bit of a funny one isn’t it, with the ledge you can sit down on, essentially followed by quite a short techy boulder you can’t fall off. How you begin to compare that in difficulty to this new one when the character is so different, I have no idea.

Answer is you don’t. You compare it to others of similar style. Pearson came unstuck basing the grade of Walk of Life to hard grit routes he’d knocked out quickly.

Fair play to Gresh he’s done the full range including, of course, Equilibrium.

[teestub]

Answer is you don’t.

From my perspective, I climbed Equilibrium, a benchmark E10, two decades ago and I'm in way better shape now. When I did that route my best sport grade was 8b+, but I've climbed 2 grades harder than that recently and also done all sorts of strength-based PBs, which I was nowhere near back then. I know I'm a much better climber overall, yet Lexicon still took me right to the brink and required way more preparation.

[guypercival]

Fantastic effort but I don’t understand all the soul searching when trying to stick the E grade on. The Uk tech grade is useless. Just give it fr8b+ R/X and we all know where we are.

[shark]

From my perspective, I climbed Equilibrium, a benchmark E10, two decades ago and I'm in way better shape now. When I did that route my best sport grade was 8b+, but I've climbed 2 grades harder than that recently and also done all sorts of strength-based PBs, which I was nowhere near back then. I know I'm a much better climber overall, yet Lexicon still took me right to the brink and required way more preparation.

Thought you were making a general comment on the use of the same grade across differing routes and comparing them to work out the grade. Didn’t realise you were drawing your comment from the article (which was TLDR) and reads as typical Gresh . 

[Ged]

Fantastic effort but I don’t understand all the soul searching when trying to stick the E grade on. The Uk tech grade is useless. Just give it fr8b+ R/X and we all know where we are.

Here here (or is it hear hear?)

[petejh]

It would be interesting to see a consensus on how UK trad grades are supposed to relate to each other. To my OCD mind at least. As it seems there are two independent interpretations of trad grades running in parallel to each other at E8 and above. What could be termed the newer school version and the old-school version. One interpretation an E-grade above the other.

i.e. how can 8b+ sport standard and scary/bold/runout, but not exceptionally dangerous from the crux, be E11 in the following grade table:

safe-ish 9a-9a+ E11
safe-ish 8c-8c+ E10
safe-ish 8b-8b+ E9
safe-ish 8a-8a+ E8
safe-ish 7c-7c+ E7
safe-ish 7b-7b+ E6
safe-ish 7a-7a+ E5
safe-ish 6c-6c+ E4
safe-ish 6b-6b+ E3
safe-ish 6a-6a+ E2
safe-ish  5 - 5+  E1

Where:
Bold/scary/runout but not exceptionally dangerous from crux:  +1 E-grade
i.e. loads of E5s/6s/7s, Strawberries (E7) 7c, Point Blank (E8) 7c+/8a, If 6 was 9 (E9) 8a+, Various Dave Mac E9s 8a+, Olympiad (E10) 8b, Prisoners of the Sun (E10) 8b - arguably dangerous from crux, Choronzon (E10) 8b+, Great Ness Wall (E10) 8b+/c, Rhapsody (E11) 8c.
Exceptionally dangerous from crux:  +2 E-grades
i.e. easy but v.serious slabs, loads of E5/6s/7s/8s, Rare Lichen (E9) 7c - although v.questionable as people have taken the fall, Gribin Wall Climb (E9) 7c+.
Unusually safe from crux:  -1 E-grade
i.e. Cockblock (E5) 7b, hard to think of many, perhaps people like to put stuff with well-protected hard climbing next to gear as 'benchmark for the grade' rather than drop the grade.


If only because I have a v.cool proj which is 7c/+ on gear, scary/bit runout but not dangerous, and it'd be nice to know what you're supposed to give it apart from the obvious which is 7c/+ on gear. Maybe the E number depends on whether I'm planning on starting a climbing business.

[ali k]

Fantastic effort but I don’t understand all the soul searching when trying to stick the E grade on. The Uk tech grade is useless. Just give it fr8b+ R/X and we all know where we are.

Am I being overly cynical to think preserving E grades is good for the British ego in a world where 8b+ just isn't very hard any more and is being climbed on scary / run out routes abroad relatively commonly without much fuss?

Have we learned nothing from Team America rinsing all the hardest grit routes in one season, or Babsi and the others ticking Pembroke in a few short weeks? 

[petejh]

Not at all imo.

[guypercival]

It would be interesting to see a consensus on how UK trad grades are supposed to relate to each other. To my OCD mind at least. As it seems there are two independent interpretations of trad grades running in parallel to each other at E8 and above. What could be termed the newer school version and the old-school version. One interpretation an E-grade above the other.

i.e. how can 8b+ sport standard and scary/bold/runout, but not exceptionally dangerous from the crux, be E11 in the following grade table:

safe-ish 9a-9a+ E11
safe-ish 8c-8c+ E10
safe-ish 8b-8b+ E9
safe-ish 8a-8a+ E8
safe-ish 7c-7c+ E7
safe-ish 7b-7b+ E6
safe-ish 7a-7a+ E5
safe-ish 6c-6c+ E4
safe-ish 6b-6b+ E3
safe-ish 6a-6a+ E2
safe-ish  5 - 5+  E1

Where:
Bold/scary/runout but not exceptionally dangerous from crux:  +1 E-grade
i.e. loads of E5s/6s/7s, Strawberries (E7) 7c, Point Blank (E8) 7c+/8a, If 6 was 9 (E9) 8a+, Various Dave Mac E9s 8a+, Olympiad (E10) 8b, Prisoners of the Sun (E10) 8b - arguably dangerous from crux, Choronzon (E10) 8b+, Great Ness Wall (E10) 8b+/c, Rhapsody (E11) 8c.
Exceptionally dangerous from crux:  +2 E-grades
i.e. easy but v.serious slabs, loads of E5/6s/7s/8s, Rare Lichen (E9) 7c - although v.questionable as people have taken the fall, Gribin Wall Climb (E9) 7c+.
Unusually safe from crux:  -1 E-grade
i.e. Cockblock (E5) 7b, hard to think of many, perhaps people like to put stuff with well-protected hard climbing next to gear as 'benchmark for the grade' rather than drop the grade.


If only because I have a v.cool proj which is 7c/+ on gear, scary/bit runout but not dangerous, and it'd be nice to know what you're supposed to give it apart from the obvious which is 7c/+ on gear. Maybe the E number depends on whether I'm planning on starting a climbing business.

I always thought the “old school” conversion applied where the route was almost like a sport route. Not particularly big run outs. More of a physical challenge than a head game. As soon as the runouts get big then the conversion goes out the window. An 80 foot fall is a completely different proposition to doing the same climb with several bits of good gear.

[cheque]

Has jwi taught us nothing?! If a route  isn’t 9c it doesn’t even deserve a grade.

I respect Gresham for giving it an E grade (as well as all the other fascinating grade information he’s provided) myself. Apart from the two action photos it’s the only straw of relatability for the average trad climber to clutch at in that mammoth write-up and consensus will decide the grade anyway- very few classic routes have remained at their original grade and no-one cares.

It’s probably sensible in terms of popularising it too. The routes that only get coy stuff like HXS 8b+/ H11/ “an 8a into a V8 Boulder problem with real danger potential” etc. seem much more likely to get forgotten about.

[SA Chris]

Indeed. If he hadn't given it an E grade, someone else would have.