Imbalance in the grades in multipitch climbing?In this post, I'd like to open the discussion about the grades in hard multipitch routes. What I'm going to write here is not intended to hurt or shock anyone. I'd just like to share my honest opinion on an issue that has been bothering me for a while...Indeed, I think most of the benchmark hard multipitch routes that I've tried in Europe are overgraded, especially for the pitches graded 8a and above. Silbergeier and Headless children in Ratikon, Kaizers Neue Kleider in Wilder Kaizer, End of Silence, La Voie Petit on Grand Capucin, Odyssée on the Eiger North Face, Carnet D'adresse in Rocher du midi, Tarrago in Montserrat, Bellavista and even the last one I tried: The Fly in Lauterbrunnen... In my opinion, all of these routes would deserve one grade less.For example, the three crux pitches of The Fly, initially graded 8b, 8c and 8b+ felt more like 8a, soft 8b+ and 8b to me. Don't take me wrong: just because these grades are incorrect does not mean that the route is easy. All these routes are freaking hard and I consider sending these as an amazing performance. It's just a matter of readjusting the scales: sending 8a after a full day of technical, exposed and sustained climbing remains an incredibly though challenge!For me pitches should be graded as if they were on the ground: it has always been the case for pitches in the 7th grade or easier multipitch, why wouldn't it be applicable for the 8th grade pitches?When I am single-pitch climbing, it is quite a big deal for me to send 8b+ in a day, but in multipitch, I've climbed multiple 8b+ in a day and a dozen of sustained technical pitches... 🤔It is hard to grade a multipitch. I imagine how difficult these routes must have been for the first ascensionist and their work is really impressive: finding the line, bolting, hoping it goes free, loose rock, no chalk, no beta, doubts, and eventually the send. After such a process, I guess it is really challenging to have sufficient hindsight for an objective opinion. It's the role of repeaters to adjust the grade.Grades are important! As climbers, we've the duty to give most honest and accurate assessment possible!
I think Silbergeier Kaisers neue Kleider and many others are on point. [...] Bellavista is easier that‘s right, but it got already down graded. To me the easy pitches and the hard ones especially on the trilogy felt harder than most of the same grades I have climbed in sport climbing. [...] Maybe it is because you are f... strong!!!
On theses routes I only know 2, on the Grand Capucin and Silbergeier, I completely agree with 8a+ in Grand Cap, but I had the feeling 8b+ was fine for Silbergeier. And on a general idea, I agree, I have done overgraded hard multipitches many times, Camilotto Pellissier is an obvious example.
I had the same feeling as you after many multipitch routes I did in the past years. A good example from your list is Headless Children. How can it be that so many strong climbers who climb much harder than 8b and have a feeling for this grade did this route and said nothing about the grade? In this case @yannick_glatthard, @nicofavresse, me and you freed the route the same day. For all of us it was obvious that the crux pitch is definitely 8a and not 8b. That's a big difference. I know many more examples for multipitch routes between 8a and 8b+. Only with Silbergeier I can't agree with you. So the argument that you're extremely strong in this technical style is true 😉. I think the issue you address here is really important and its good to talk about that. I heard many times that “it's stupid to talk about grades and grades are not so important”. Thats not true, grades are important! [...] The biggest pleasure I have is when I climb on my limit, therefore an accurate grading is important.
I agree with your sentiment, the individual pitch grades shouldn’t be affected, however an overall grade could be given as it doesn’t accurately portray the difficulty of the whole climb to just give it a single grade for the hardest pitch. Recently I attempted “Long Hope Direct”, the crux is 8b on trad gear and the rest of the 400m below is nothing harder than 6c, but it’s way harder than most of the big hard alpine rock routes I’ve done in the Alps.I do disagree with your opinion on which routes need downgraded haha Bellavista for sure, the crux pitch felt about 8b. Also Projext Fear which shares the panorama second crux (8c), that felt 8a/+ to me. But for me der Kaiser, eofs and Silbergeier felt spot on. I’ve climbed a lot at the grade range and didn’t think they were soft by any stretch of the imagination (maybe EofS crux is 8b, but the rest was spot on). Saying that, grades are subjective and you do climb 9a+ (or harder) so your estimations are more likely to be out than someone who climbs nearer that grade in my opinion (such as me whose hardest grade is nearer the max on these big multipitches)
I just don't really get his point, as you say, it's a bit obvious. What debate is he hoping to start?
I don't know the hard Euro multi-pitching scene at all. Is it full of routes that everyone knows are soft and people who put big numbers on their spray anyway?
Person spends days and days and days cleaning, bolting, working and eventually redponting a line, and is out by a grade or two. Not that surprising is it?
Some of these routes have are quite old and have had 20-30 repeats or more. You would have thought that someone would have said something.
His comment boiled down to the observation that the overall experience (i.e., number of hard pitches, exposure, approach, ...) is likely part of the grading. He also stated that it usually took him around the same number of days to redpoint a single-pitch 8b+ as these 8b+ multipitches...
It’s almost like you need a grade for the overall difficulty of the route, taking into account factors other than physical difficulty, in addition to the individual pitch grade. Now where have I heard of something like that…?!
Quote from: jwi on June 29, 2021, 09:31:51 amSome of these routes have are quite old and have had 20-30 repeats or more. You would have thought that someone would have said something.It's not a new topic tough. The late Harald Berger discussed this grading dilemma already in 2004 after repeating the trilogy.His comment boiled down to the observation that the overall experience (i.e., number of hard pitches, exposure, approach, ...) is likely part of the grading. He also stated that it usually took him around the same number of days to redpoint a single-pitch 8b+ as these 8b+ multipitches...
But on a Mussato 7c pitch I would expect the climbing to be of the same difficulty as a 7c on a Provençal single pitch crag, and as Duncan said, anyone who tries an Ochsner 7a with the expectation that the grade is generous since it is on a multi-pitch route is likely to be disappointed. Why should the rules be different in the 8th grade?
-being from belgium myself, I can also see how he would feel very comfortable on most of the trilogy limestone routes. They resemble our sport crags (which are known to be hard for the grade) in style. Comparing to those routes, I bet he's right about his grades but his reference might be different than others.
There is some logic in grading an 8a multipitch appropriately so that a well rounded 8a climber who has alpine experience will have a reasonable chance of success on it?