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Topic split: Fear and Loathing in Llandudno (Read 6582 times)

remus

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Wood FT

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Trance. Doylo - What's that first track? I went to Gatecrasher for my 18th and that song is my only memory, please tell me it!

Will Hunt

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Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

Doylo

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Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

Thereís enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Trance. Doylo - What's that first track? I went to Gatecrasher for my 18th and that song is my only memory, please tell me it!

We Are Alive - Paul van Dyk

teestub

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Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

Thereís enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Did you give in to the knee rubber?!

Doylo

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Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

Thereís enough send videos in the world  ;) Thought a failure video might be bit different .

Did you give in to the knee rubber?!

No never tried it. Donít think Iíll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.

36chambers

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Of course I enjoyed the video but, spoiler alert, I was expecting to see triumphant send footage. I thought Doylo eventually did it?

It was about 10 minutes after I finished watching it that I thought "hang on a second, did I see the send footage or not?"

Good video as aways Doylo, it's amazing how quickly the 30 minutes went, and the training montage with that Sleepwalker track got my very psyched for some cranking :strongbench:

teestub

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No never tried it. Donít think Iíll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.

Hope it still felt like a positive experience when you did. Great vid as always!


tomtom

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Great vid Doylo. Loved it.

Bradders

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Loved it, great to see the effort involved and commitment. Training scenes likewise had me well psyched.

I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.

abarro81

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"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:

jwi

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Loved it, great to see the effort involved and commitment. Training scenes likewise had me well psyched.

I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.

I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.

Bradders

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"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:

All moves are hard when you're pumped though!  ;)

Also fun fact; just watched the first ascent footage and Mule actually tries to use a kneebar on his original sequence....37 seconds in:


Doylo

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"you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on

Can tell you're a boulderer, I go climbing to get pumped!  :lol:

All moves are hard when you're pumped though!  ;)

Also fun fact; just watched the first ascent footage and Mule actually tries to use a kneebar on his original sequence....37 seconds in:



Ye maybe he would have done it that way with rubber. He would have done the FA Dannyís way if heíd thought of it I reckon.

No never tried it. Donít think Iíll climb in there again.. Makes me feel a bit nauseous when I walk past now.

Hope it still felt like a positive experience when you did. Great vid as always!



Not been on the Orme much, I like to hang out at places with no people these days but had a good wee social with the Sheffield pensioners. Moony was there in his plush expensive van, 30 years ago he used to sleep in the Cave with the Pen Tywyn Patrol.

Doylo

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Bradders

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I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.

All personal isn't it, just different types of arbitrary challenge at the end of the day.

shark

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I'm so conflicted about the knee. On the one hand I love finding new beta and feeling like I'm bringing things down to my level, but on the other I think Danny's comment of "you go climbing to do hard moves" is spot on. Great attitude to have.

I think that is a pretty bad attitude that holds climbing back. Climbing is about figuring out the easiest way to get up a piece of rock. People who don't like that can compete in finger boarding.

In what way is it a bad attitude that is holding climbing backĒ? (and is it even (free) climbing?) Iím beginning to wonder!

I think it is a valid individual (and heartfelt) response by Doyle and Danny that using kneepads has spoiled a climb. It could even be viewed that kneepads are a type of aid like resting on a piece of gear.

As Joble said to Barrows: ďIf thatís climbing then Iím not interestedĒ and that is a legitimate stance to take. Itís interesting that people are noting their use of kneebars or not on problems like Benís in the ukc logbooks so there is a reasonably widespread recognition of the significant difference kneepads/bars can have to the difficulty and even character of a problem.

I see no issue in describing and grading things with and without kneepads/bars at Parisellas though entirely different names would be a step too far. I donít see how that might be ďholding climbing back eitherĒ.

abarro81

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As Joble said to Barrows: ďIf thatís climbing then Iím not interestedĒ and that is a legitimate stance to take. Itís interesting that people are noting their use of kneebars or not on problems like Benís in the ukc logbooks so there is a reasonably widespread recognition of the significant difference kneepads/bars can have to the difficulty and even character of a problem.

Appropriately, if technique elimination is climbing then I'm not interested. (James' comment was actually about tall people lanking a move IIRC, but it covers every sequence he doesn't like or that varies from what he used I think!) I go climbing to climb things. If I just wanted to do hard moves I'd be an indoor climber and stick to a board. I'd fuckin' love someone to go do the big 8b+ on the right of Ramirole and tell me that they weren't interested in covering their knees with something  :lol:

The kneebars on Bens are fine without pads, making all discussion of eliminating them worse than pinches wall, which at least eliminates holds.


I see no issue in describing and grading things with and without kneepads/bars at Parisellas though entirely different names would be a step too far. I donít see how that might be ďholding climbing back eitherĒ.

I still think that the stuff in Parisella's should get new names, preferably ones like Pill-gurnage, Poo-ferino, Direct-a-slut, Tug-your-atrocity etc.

It might hold climbing back by holding people's skills back; e.g. it sounds like one big difference between Buster and Jorge on FRFM was that Jorge is a knee wizard. I remember a conversation years ago where someone (Tim P I think) suggested that since I mostly bouldered to train for routes, why didn't I boulder without knees as it would be better training... A few years later while only just getting up my hardest ever onsights due to emergency knee use I was reminded that this would have been a terrible plan!
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 10:47:14 am by abarro81 »

Doylo

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It gives me mixed emotions. I use and like kneepads, often they only make a marginal difference like on Hubble allegedly (still 9a they say?). Iíve got a few extremely marginal scums on Liquid Ambar which give you 2% or something .  On longer stuff they may bring the difficulty down but usually doesnít feel like itís ruined it. Barrows level of kneebarring does look a bit horrible but Iíve never seen anyone else do it to the same extent (good skills no doubt just makes your penis shrink up a bit watching). With Louis Iíd never tried the knee potential (hadnít been done with it then) and was tied up with the history, move etc.  Unlike Hubble etc it knocks a few grades off and the whole premise of the problem has always been that 7c+ move so without that just seems pointless to me. Tim Blake did it recently the original way, Iím guessing itíll still get ascents with and without until a few generations time when all the old school people have died off / retired and kids are getting kneepads with their first pair of shoes.

Nike Air

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Really is a tricky one.  :worms:

Chris, who found the knee bar on Louis?

I watched a lad successfully do progress (8c+ at Kilnsey) yesterday and he utilized two hands off rests using knee bars. By the 4th and 5th clip (or somewhere near those), this is essentially smack bang in the middle of the hard climbing and looks a game changer is making it way less of a power endurance route.
I don't think anyone has ever tried these before so he's approached with fresh eyes and found a way for him to be able to do the route.
There is one high on the route that I used without a pad but the hard climbing is essentially over by then.

From what I hear the sequence on Rainman (9b at malham) has been changed a bit by this same. Lad. Knee bars being found in a few places (not just the one Ste Mac used) and who know it may even bring the grade down significantly?

Some knee bars are hard to use and but like everything can be trained. What then probably happens is that you spend more time looking for shin size gaps than ever before... 


Ps Im guilty of finding knee bars on things so I'm not sure what to think now.
Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???
« Last Edit: June 03, 2021, 10:07:10 pm by Nike Air »

Rob F

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What would the police do if they caught you driving just using your knees along the A55 all the way to the Cave of Justice???

Doylo

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Really is a tricky one.  :worms:

Chris, who found the knee bar on Louis?

I first heard of Ned using it; he didnít  reach the lip but I think he had his hands too far back. Then Ally Smith has tried it and Joe Lawson did it. Ironically Barrows shin was too long to fit it (heís a rubber skyscraper). 


Quote
Ps Im guilty of finding knee bars on things so I'm not sure what to think now.
Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Ye.. Interesting as you seem to be one of the most prolific kneebarrers and you still feel like that. Think youíre right about side of the discovery/emotional attachment, I discovered the knee on Trigger using jeans initially, I used them on Directors with a pad and it still felt pretty cool and tricky, a grade and half easier but still quite flowy. Barrows got a double kneebar no hands rest on it which takes away the PE flowy nature of it but tires the core Iím sure.
Strange thing is if Iíd have done the FA of Louis and discovered the knee I wouldnít have thought twice about using it but after seeing the FA and loads of wads on it, plus sporadic attempts on the move over the years it just finds a place in your psyche I guess.  If you have zero investment in it just wack the knee in and itís just another polished limestone roof that youíll never think about again.
Somethings they completely change and ruin and sometimes itís just a little help. Like on Isla de Encanta - the new knee is really marginal and nails and doesnít ruin the problem ie knock grades off it. With Louis it basically kills it. Itís not the main reason Iím not gonna try it again though. The injuries and lack of desire to go in there again have done that.

Nike Air

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 So this Louis knee also needs someone with long arms or wide shoulders?

At least No one has used a book and a pad yet... 😂

I remember doing trigger cut with Tyler the original way and then being gutted that a knee had been found but then not being able to fit it. (maybe I need a trip down with a suitable softback!)

Thing is you'd never go back on something that you've done sans pad to the re do it with one would you? Or maybe you would?

jwi

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It might hold climbing back by holding people's skills back; e.g. it sounds like one big difference between Buster and Jorge on FRFM was that Jorge is a knee wizard.

The strong and gifted climber Mateusz Haładaj has been trying FRFM for quite a while and he has apparently tried all the kneebars the combined might of Ondra, Rullo and Graham have found and cannot make use of single one of them.

Likewise I tried to use the kneebar Dave Graham found at the last bolt of Geminis (on his onsight no less) but I am neither skillful enough nor sufficiently strong in my calfs and toes.

I remember a conversation years ago where someone (Tim P I think) suggested that since I mostly bouldered to train for routes, why didn't I boulder without knees as it would be better training... A few years later while only just getting up my hardest ever onsights due to emergency knee use I was reminded that this would have been a terrible plan!

Same for me, on one of my hardest onsight ever my unclad knee automatically snuck into a marginal and very painful kneebar after the hard part, allowing me to shake out enough to get to the top. Without having spend enough time to automate the movement it would not have happend and I would surely have fallen. Indeed, later in the week I saw a much better climber get to the same point on the onsight, miss the kneebar and hilariously pump out on the 6b climbing afterwards.


jwi

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Maybe it's the emotional attachment to a particular sequence that you've invested yourself in that makes it hurt more when the difficulty is changed. Depends which side of the discovery you find yourself on???

Surely the only appropriate feeling when someone finds a better sequence is shame? Shame for lack of vision and ability?

 

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