[AMorris]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Yeah it basically is, just much cheaper and significantly more boring to eat! Was an enjoyable, if pungent, afternoon

[abarro81]

Why not just get some collagen from myprotein or similar? it's only a bit more pricey than whey. Is the other stuff any different?
I've used the MP stuff.. haven't had any pulley tweaks since! Magic. Or it may be because my chronically inflamed PIP and stretchy volar plate mean I can never pull hard enough on small holds to put my pulleys at risk. I'm happy to overlook this and spout on insta about how great this stuff is for an appropriate fee if anyone selling this stuff (including Haribo) is interested

[teestub]

Alex, as per my previous post, I couldn’t find any details on the MP site as to the source of their collagen, is there anything on the packaging that sheds light on it? Anything suspiciously cheap that has to be sourced from animal products seems a bit sketchy!

[abarro81]

Nope, doesn't say anything (other than not suitable for vegetarians)... never fear though, it does claim to be gluten free so it must be good for you

[mrjonathanr]

Alex, as per my previous post, I couldn’t find any details on the MP site as to the source of their collagen, is there anything on the packaging that sheds light on it? Anything suspiciously cheap that has to be sourced from animal products seems a bit sketchy!

You want type 1 collagen mostly, unless you are really after shiny hair/nails/youthful skin etc. SoI asked them. It is primarily type 1, some 3, sourced from beef. Amino profile:

Amino Acid /  weight / % / mol %
Hydroxyproline 12,2 10,3
Aspartic acid 6,0 5,0
Serine 3,1 3,3
Glutamic acid 10,3 7,7
Glycine 21,0 31,1
Histidine 1,1 0,8
Arginine 7,3 4,6
Threonine 1,9 1,7
Alanine 8,9 11,1
Proline 12,8 12,3
Tyrosine 1,0 0,6
Hydroxylysine 1,5 1,0
Valine 2,4 2,3
Methionine 0,9 0,7
Lysine 3,5 2,7
Isoleucine 1,5 1,3
Leucine 2,7 2,3
Phenyalanine 2,1 1,4

[JJP]

The principle that tendons get nutrients differently and we should be eating something targeted to this pre session is interesting - is this an established thing?  I usually have a chocolate bar and coffee but do put considerable effort into trying to eat appropriate food for recovery after. 

I find all the different terms and amounts pretty confusing.  What does 15g gelatin equate to in all these collagen supplements etc. 

[mrjonathanr]

= 15g of protein.

The theory is that lacking blood supplies, tendons mostly absorb nutrients during exercise, like a sponge being wrung out and reabsorbing liquid. So post exercise uptake of amino amino acids for collagen building will be negligible, hence the focus on consuming prior.

[rjtrials]

I heard the adage "feed your tendons before exercise and your muscles after" a few years ago and experimented with making jello, different drinks, etc.

I now use the Collagen Hydrolysate from Great Lakes Gelatin.  It mixes easily in water and I use a Emergen-C packet in each drink. 

Historically i have had very bad tweaky fingers which has drastically subsided the last two-ish years with consistent collagen usage.

[Oldmanmatt]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Mmmmmmmmm...

Haribo.


Ok, done with the Haribo jokes.

I didn’t dip into the thread again after the last Haribo gag, until today and I think I had a light bulb moment.

I started taking the Seven Seas joint care capsules (about the size of a Kinder Egg plastic capsule, but not quite as easy to swallow) about four months back.
I was aware that my diet was lacking any trace of oily fish or anything approximating it and really intrigued to see if Vit D might help with mood and general winter blues etc. There is a collagen supplement in that mix.
I have Dupuytrens, in both hands, ring finger, but it’s been calm or even in remission for a couple of years, until I realised it’s sore and enlarged again, around a week ago. I haven’t stepped up my training tempo, particularly, in the hand department. I’ve increased my running and Yomping and I’ve been doing Aerial Silks as a bit of a laugh, but the only real difference that I can think of, that might affect my hands, are the supplements.

[cheque]

I decided to make my own by making a dense orange flavoured jelly using beef gelatine powder and citric acid ... my first batch I dissolved and mixed poorly, meaning there was a very dense "skin" of jelly at the bottom of each block, making it extremely hard to chew even when thawed

most likely sources seem to be boiled animal bones or fish skin

Chuck some beetroot juice and CBD oil into this witches brew and you’ve got a substance that, if you can force it down, will get you a Tindeq score that’s off the charts.

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.

Joking aside, legend has it that JB’s climbing has been fuelled by nothing    but Haribo and meat for decades so everyone should just be listening to him on this.

[honroid]

I have bought some vegan collagen supplement and I'm now taking that alongside my vegan protein blend each morning 30 mins before a Hörst inspired 6 minute stretch and light fingerboard. I am hugely sceptical of the vegan collagen, less sceptical of the vegan blend powder and I reckon a quick two sets of nerve glides, power fingers and hangs can only help to draw blood (and therefore nutrients) to the supportive structures of the hands.

[teestub]

I have bought some vegan collagen supplement

Boiled up plant bones?

[honroid]

    

[duncan]

Just to remind people that, despite what you may have recently read on social media, collagen supplementation has not been shown to improve musculoskeletal pain compared with other forms of protein. The latest systematic review (Khatri et al 2021) claims collagen supplementation helps musculoskeletal pain but, shamefully, they do not say compared to what. In all 5 the studies on pain the comparison group get an inactive placebo (usually sugar). My guess is when collagen is compared with a good quality protein source any effects will disappear.

Claims that changes in collagen synthesis are relevant should be taken with a very large pinch of salt. As per my post up thread, there is no proof this is a relevant factor.

[mrjonathanr]

I think it’s an attractive idea, but the comment that it was as effective as ‘giving a bald man hair to drink’ rather made me think again.

[cofe]

Interesting, thanks. I was reading up on collagen again this morning to see if it might help elbow tendinopathy recovery. To date, I’ve been too tight to buy some of the suspicious-looking powder, though some of the tendon boffins like Keith Baar seem to advocate it’s use for recovery from tendon injuries.

[teestub]

As with Duncan’s post above, I think the Baar studies lacked an appropriate control too.

Post in question for those wondering
https://www.instagram.com/p/CbMvsFrK1lV/?utm_medium=copy_link

Some good skepticism in the comments

[reeve]

Thanks for the update / summary Duncan.

I bought some a couple of years ago when feeling despondent about my elbows and desperately seeking a miracle cure. I couldn't perceive any difference between phases of using it and otherwise. About three weeks ago - with a recurrence of the old golfer's - I gave it another go. Again, no discernable help, especially not compared with the much more important factor of carefully modulating the volume of climbing to match the tendon's capacity with help from a physio (thanks Biscuit). N=1 caveats obvs.

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

[hongkongstuey]

Not sure if this adds much to what's already been said, but they made me laugh so...

[honroid]

 

I'm not sure if this belongs in the same topic but the two papers discussed here seemed to support, not collagen but creatine..

https://www.powercompanyclimbing.com/blog/breakingbeta/creatine-for-climbers

[cofe]

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

Sorry Andy, I missed this. Thanks for the offer. I could try and get it off you but I think I’ve decided it’s all a load of bobbins!

[reeve]

All that being said, I have an unopened pack in the cupboard if you'd like to try it Cofe?

Sorry Andy, I missed this. Thanks for the offer. I could try and get it off you but I think I’ve decided it’s all a load of bobbins!

I've never been very good at the hard sell tbf

[duncan]

Thanks to Andy McVittie who pointed out this fascinating paper on tendinopathy repair, measuring collagen turnover using C14 released into the atmosphere during atomic bomb testing. Comforting to know my shoulders and elbows glow slightly, being the right age and with the appropriate injuries! The latter perhaps related to starting climbing after the age of 13: their results depressingly suggest tendons are fully formed by that age.

The results also seem to indicate, in tendinopathic tendons, not more than 50% of tendon material is exchanged over a very long period of time (a range, but call it 10 years to make the arithmetic easy). I’ve dissected an elbow common flexor origin tendon - the 'golfer's elbow' tendon - in an anatomy lab. It’s tiny and I would estimate weights not more than 1g. So we are talking ~0.05g of tendon material exchanged per year. Tendon also includes GAGs and water, so this is an overestimate of collagen turnover. This means the tendinopathic tendon is exchanging in the order of 0.0001g of collagen per day. Even if there are spikes in collagen exchange and my numbers are out by an order of magnitude or two, these data demonstrate the implausibility of amino acid availability as a bottleneck in tendon repair. 

Protein (collagen) supplements are highly unlikely to be helpful in tendinopathy because tendon repair involves miniscule amounts of collagen synthesis.

[duncan]

Results from studies comparing collagen supplements with other forms of protein are now starting to be reported. Unsurprisingly there are no differences in short term connective protein synthesis rates between the two different types of protein. This is a short-term explanatory study - examining a proposed mechanism rather than clinical outcome - with small numbers. Generally however, explanatory studies tend to overestimate effects which are not reflected in what happens with real people with real injuries. I'd be astonished if collagen supplements perform better than adequate controls - a decent diet and the same amount of exercise - in people with tendinopathies for example.

Of course real food will be better for you - and tastier - than any processed supplement including whey.