[teestub]

Seen a lot of ‘climbing influencers’ pedalling collagen supplements recently, it’s also popped up on a couple of thread, and it has got me thinking it deserved its own for reference.

In my very limited understanding of how the body works: you eat protein, it gets broken down into its constituent amino acids, then your body uses them for what it needs. As such there’s no advantage to eating collagen or collagen supplements over any complete protein source.

Can anyone add any knowledge to this?

[Coops_13]

I think you're right that it probably has minimal benefit over the complete protein source. There is a 'questionable' paper on Horst's sales website which claims a spike in collagen synthesis 30 - 60mins after taking a combined collagen/vit c dosage.

From an anecdotal perspective, I've used it for a while with no clear results. I'm using it more religiously now due to my finger injury and I've also splashed out on this snake oil product that I take every day: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B00FQJZJLU/ref=sspa_dk_detail_5?psc=1&pd_rd_i=B00FQJZJLU&pd_rd_w=XglIX&pf_rd_p=cbc856ed-1371-4f23-b89d-d3fb30edf66d&pd_rd_wg=4aqsL&pf_rd_r=0NQA36T44ECAEPF0RKM1&pd_rd_r=15e2fb59-7bdb-421e-ab96-3fd2d6da99e4&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUExSzNQQURRTE9aMk5HJmVuY3J5cHRlZElkPUEwOTU5ODQxTzQ2Q1M3MFVSTFpCJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA3OTYyNDAxRzJTNjlDSzI3NjlHJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3BfZGV0YWlsX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

If it helps 0.5% then I'll be happy :D

[Oldmanmatt]

Seen a lot of ‘climbing influencers’ pedalling collagen supplements recently, it’s also popped up on a couple of thread, and it has got me thinking it deserved its own for reference.

In my very limited understanding of how the body works: you eat protein, it gets broken down into its constituent amino acids, then your body uses them for what it needs. As such there’s no advantage to eating collagen or collagen supplements over any complete protein source.

Can anyone add any knowledge to this?

Jelly Babies.
Haribo.
They taste better.

What more is there to say?

Oh yeah.

Bacon.

(There ya go, whole protein).

[abarro81]

Think it might just be the amino profile/spectrum and having the "right" aminos floating around in high concentration at the relevant moment... but I may be wrong on that!

[SA Chris]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

[turnipturned]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Why?

[SA Chris]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

[teestub]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Are you thinking of Chondritin, which may adversely impact Dupuytens? Not seen anything about collagen

[turnipturned]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

Interesting, I was taking it daily with orange juicy after I did a grade 2/3 shoulder separation. Haven’t noticed my Dupuytren getting any worse.

Funnily enough, I notice I still had halve a bag left in the cub board, so started taking it again..... maybe I stop 

[SA Chris]

I meant Glucosaminne Sulphate not MSG, obv, sorry

[SA Chris]

If you have an indication of, or family history of, Dupuytren's I'd steer well clear too.

Are you thinking of Chondritin, which may adversely impact Dupuytens? Not seen anything about collagen

I'm no expert, bit if the cords are made of collagen, surely having an excess of it in your blood is a bad idea?

[Yossarian]

I was given some MyProtein collagen the other day. It is spectacularly disgusting - almost comically so. It's supposed to be grape flavour, but it actually tastes like the non-specific smell of cheap bubblegum, without the fruitiness. I kind of like it, purely on the basis that supplementation this disgusting has got to be weapons-grade and if I can hold it down it won't be long before I rip the Beastmaker in half...

[Coops_13]

I meant Glucosaminne Sulphate not MSG, obv, sorry

You may have meant MSM - Joint pills often have Glucosamine, MSM and Chondrotin in them

[mrjonathanr]

Think it might just be the amino profile/spectrum and having the "right" aminos floating around in high concentration at the relevant moment... but I may be wrong on that!

Think it is meant to be the concentration of proline and glycine surrounding the connective tissue as they are used thus infusing them when they are stimulated to synthesise more collagen. Leucine is also key for signalling protein synthesis but that’s generally available in protein sources.


At the end of the day there is a lot of poorly understood science going on here, myself included, but it is cheaper than going to the physio, I figure it has to be worth a punt.

[erm, sam]

DMC talks about collagen with ref to science at the end, 17mins ish, of this:

[teestub]

The study that D Mac references is the one that’s cropped up before
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5183725/
Collagen is only compared to a maltodextrin placebo rather than another protein source, so doesn’t provide any comparison, but it does have this nugget in from mouse studies

Mouse studies that used 14C-labeled gelatin hydrolysate (33) further demonstrated that, although tracer from proline could be incorporated into skin collagen at the same rate as tracer from gelatin, tracer from the gelatin was incorporated into the collagen of cartilage and muscle twice as much as tracer from proline (33). These data suggest that musculoskeletal collagen synthesis is greater in response to gelatin than to individual amino acids.

[tomtom]

Gravy wins again then?

[SA Chris]

Wine gums FTW!

[Bradders]

Can make it worse, Collagen is what causes the bumps and cords to form.

Mine definitely got worse rapidly while I was taking MSG / Chondroitin Supplements, but slowed down as soon as I stopped.

Interesting, I was taking it daily with orange juicy after I did a grade 2/3 shoulder separation. Haven’t noticed my Dupuytren getting any worse.

Funnily enough, I notice I still had halve a bag left in the cub board, so started taking it again..... maybe I stop 

Yeah interesting. I tried taking some last year after a minor finger tweak (after seeing D Mac and Tom Herbert talking about it on their social media), and subsequently developed a small lump in my palm that could have been the start of dupuytrens, or was maybe just scar tissue.

Hard to know, but I think it's reduced in size since I stopped taking the collagen.

[SA Chris]

Sadly probably DC. They start as lumps and at first it's very noticeable when it grows, but then you seem to desensitise to it and your hand seems to adapt around it and it feels like it gets smaller as a result, but it's probably still there.

I had a second one come on quickly a couple of years ago (had one on pinkie for ages, second one now on ring finger), and was very bothersome at first, but hardly notice it now, except when pulling on bucket sized holds on steeper walls and on the occasion when I grab a knob hold "bottle" style.

[duncan]

The study that D Mac references is the one that’s cropped up before
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5183725/
Collagen is only compared to a maltodextrin placebo rather than another protein source, so doesn’t provide any comparison, but it does have this nugget in from mouse studies

Mouse studies that used 14C-labeled gelatin hydrolysate (33) further demonstrated that, although tracer from proline could be incorporated into skin collagen at the same rate as tracer from gelatin, tracer from the gelatin was incorporated into the collagen of cartilage and muscle twice as much as tracer from proline (33). These data suggest that musculoskeletal collagen synthesis is greater in response to gelatin than to individual amino acids.

I try hard not to be cynical about nutritional research but then read studies like this where n=8 and the controls have fasted and lose the will to continue.

More generally, is there any evidence that collagen synthesis is a limiting factor in soft-tissue healing? Or that more is actually better? Collagen synthesis is one part of the repair process, it might be that remodelling the new collagen is the pinch point for example (it’s a much longer duration phase of healing).

As above, there is a theoretically plausible mechanism and anecdotal reports of association between Dupuytren’s and Glucosamine / Chondroitin sulphate. I’m not aware of anything in relation to collagen supplements but they are relatively recent development/fashion.

[teestub]

I try hard not to be cynical about nutritional research but then read studies like this where n=8 and the controls have fasted and lose the will to continue.

This, totally. Palmstrong also pointed out to me that from the graphs (Figure 4), the placebo had a similar effect in increasing the strength of the ligament as the higher dose of collagen. As such their findings don’t really seem to support their conclusions or the widespread recommendation for collagen supplementation which seems to have stemmed from this one paper.

Also interesting to note that supplement companies generally don’t list the source of their collagen supplements, most likely sources seem to be boiled animal bones or fish skin. I find it quite interesting how people in general seem to be less bothered about what they are putting in their body when it’s a ‘supplement’. I remember reading that one of the main sources of BCAA was hair 🤢

[tomtom]

Sadly probably DC. They start as lumps and at first it's very noticeable when it grows, but then you seem to desensitise to it and your hand seems to adapt around it and it feels like it gets smaller as a result, but it's probably still there.

I had a second one come on quickly a couple of years ago (had one on pinkie for ages, second one now on ring finger), and was very bothersome at first, but hardly notice it now, except when pulling on bucket sized holds on steeper walls and on the occasion when I grab a knob hold "bottle" style.

I've had one on my RH form - be painful and now its nearly disappeared (can still feel it if I prod hard enough)...

Then about 2 years ago one appeared on my LH (Pinky or ring) straight after I started doing a few sessions of max hangs on small edges. I stopped doing that exercise - and its stabilised but still there...

[AMorris]

I tried collagen supplementation after annihilating my middle A2 in sept, as a result of watching DMac's video, a bit of reading, and basically just deciding that I will do anything I can to get back to health as quickly as possible. However after seeing the mad price of some of the hydrolysed collagen supplements I decided to make my own by making a dense orange flavoured jelly using beef gelatine powder and citric acid (probably not necessary since I used orange juice) and freezing it in blocks. I can't honestly say I saw results beyond what I could attribute to normal healing. But honestly, it was pretty cheap to do (5 quid of materials made around 2 months of cubes), so it could only slightly work and still be worth trying.

For anyone looking to do this, here is some jelly beta I learned:
- beef gelatine is rank stuff, so flavour strongly with orange juice unless you are a fan of Boeuf à l'orange 
- flavouring with orange juice will mean adding vit C is obv pointless, since you barely need any. I have about 100g of ascorbic acid that I only needed about 1g of over both batches.
- my first batch I dissolved and mixed poorly, meaning there was a very dense "skin" of jelly at the bottom of each block, making it extremely hard to chew even when thawed

Hope this helps anyone interested in trying it on the cheap.

[Johnny Brown]

This appears to be a shit recipe for Haribo which is not rank at all. And no, I'm not sponsored by them, though open to offers.