[Wood FT]

Yo,

For a number of years, I have felt my heel hooking has been let down by the lack of flexibility in my ankles. I always see people deftly placing the side of their heel on holds, whereas I thunk the heel down on the ball. I can get the side of my heel on but I have to turn my whole leg to do so - if that makes sense?

As a yoof, I was pigeon-toed, still am to some extent, so have always been stiff in the hips and ankles. I understand how to improve my hips but ankles..... The googling I have done takes me to exercises for improving ankle strength.

Has anyone had the same experience or tips to help? I really feel like this is what is holding me back from 8C.

[SA Chris]

Not saying buy one, but you could make something like this with a few books and a bit of wood. Expect tight calves are a major factor

[TobyD]

I have very flexible ankles, but the downside is that they're also very unstable. You can do gastrocnemius stretches, but you'll struggle to stretch the medial ligament, as it's pretty beefy. Your ATFL is stretchable, (ankle into inversion) but perhaps not that desirable, as the stretchier it is, the less stable it is.
My guess, and it's only a guess is that hip flexibility would be more useful and permit more heel hooking?

[Oldmanmatt]

Many years ago, I broke my ankle climbing in the Dolomites, then spent the next few months running around on it (actually, for most of the Gulf war, episode one, the Kuwait connection (before we knew it was going to become a series)).
Anyway, really fucked what should have been a very minor “crack” and chewed up pretty much all the soft and connective tissue etc etc.

I spent a long time driving a desk and sat in a classroom the following year and the Physio had me keep a tennis ball under that desk. I just slipped my shoe off and kept rolling my foot over and around the ball, soon became an absent minded habit, but along with the more formal “normal” stretches once or twice a week, I was soon up and running again (literally).

Incidentally, it’s one of my few injuries that has yet to come back and haunt me, to the point I have concentrate and struggle to remember which ankle it was. That might just be senility, of course...

[Scouse D]

My twopenneth here is to focus on hip flexibility. My ankles are very stiff, one is fixed in position after an accident. It's always the hips that let me down not the ankles and hip mobility work is yielding excellent results on the home board.

[BrutusTheBear]

  Hi Guy.
Having fractured my left ankle twice I have similar issues..I found this very useful:

Although for the rotation you are looking for simply use a resistance band. Whilst sitting in a chair, place around feet and then rotate outwards against the resistance. There are loads of rehab videos with this exercise.

[Johnny Brown]

I'm struggling to think of times when I've consciously turned my ankle on a heel hook. More usually a choice between knee up or out. But I've got decent hip flexibility.

[tomtom]

I tend to find if I use the side of my heel - like JB that means my knee goes out.

(as an example - using the heel toe on Kudos for the moves up to the rh on flake)

When I've done this in anger - its tweaked/popped something in my knee - so I avoid it at nearly all costs nowadays - and generally plonk my heel on

[sheavi]

What you describe does not sound like an ankle mobility issue.  There are two things to consider. The first is that lateral/external rotation of the shin on knee may help this heel hook positioning but it is not something that really can be improved or stretched.  Doing so will likely lead to injury. 

The most sensible course of action it to improve hip/pelvis/lumbar mobility.

Yo,

For a number of years, I have felt my heel hooking has been let down by the lack of flexibility in my ankles. I always see people deftly placing the side of their heel on holds, whereas I thunk the heel down on the ball. I can get the side of my heel on but I have to turn my whole leg to do so - if that makes sense?

As a yoof, I was pigeon-toed, still am to some extent, so have always been stiff in the hips and ankles. I understand how to improve my hips but ankles..... The googling I have done takes me to exercises for improving ankle strength.

Has anyone had the same experience or tips to help? I really feel like this is what is holding me back from 8C.

[User deactivated.]

+1 on hip flexibility, but also hip mobility which is often overlooked, and posterior chain strength.

Heel hooking is one of the rare things I do well in climbing, probably due to a background in weightlifting and martial arts. I don't know if these will apply for you, but I think the three most important parts are:

external rotation of the hip - pigeon pose is a good stretch to increase passive external hip rotation, and you should be able to get 90 degrees of external rotation, but this will not necessarily allow you to use that range in your climbing. For example, raise your right leg in front of you to a 90 degree angle, allowing a 90 degree angle to form at the knee. Now try to rotate your femur so your foot comes up to your left. It's probably a long way off 90 degrees, and this is your mobility. Static holds and slow repetitions will help you improve this and I find this mobility useful for placing high/accurate heels while under tension.

hip flexor mobility - you've seen the martial artists who can kick to head height and then hold that position right? that is an example of extremely good mobility. Hopefully you can already bring your knee up towards your chest and hold it there for time while standing, but may have noticed it's more difficult to raise your legs in certain positions while climbing. For me this is when the abs are already engaged to hold tension and i'm relying solely on hip flexors to raise the leg. Sometimes the foot can feel nailed down. This strength is also really handy for heel hooking and my favourite compression exercises to build this strength are in here:    

posterior chain strength - this is less about placing the heel but more about getting power through it once it's on. There's ton's you can do for this e.g. deadlifts, hamstring exercises, etc. but I think the glutes are often neglected by men, as the deadlift doesn't work them especially well. Nordic curls are a killer, you will likely be starting with just negative reps and WARM UP FIRST or you will tear a hamstring. Remember external hip rotation above which is used to place the heel? Glute strength will assist in powering the internal rotation needed to apply torque to the rock.

[Dexter]

I tend to find if I use the side of my heel - like JB that means my knee goes out.

(as an example - using the heel toe on Kudos for the moves up to the rh on flake)

When I've done this in anger - its tweaked/popped something in my knee - so I avoid it at nearly all costs nowadays - and generally plonk my heel on

Exactly the same for me, also caused by the heel move on Kudos. I think it's forces more of a lateral movement in the knee joint (but I'm no expert). There are definitely times when it feels like being able to use the side of the heel would work better but be careful to not go too hard or your knees might not like it.

[MischaHY]

I tend to find if I use the side of my heel - like JB that means my knee goes out.

(as an example - using the heel toe on Kudos for the moves up to the rh on flake)

When I've done this in anger - its tweaked/popped something in my knee - so I avoid it at nearly all costs nowadays - and generally plonk my heel on

I had exactly this happen to me in Sardinia last year. A friend who is a sport physio had a look, snorted and told me it's a muscular stability thing and climbers are generally crap with this. Sure enough, I got a load of leg conditioning work done this winter and now hooks feel massively better, alongside flexibility and especially keeping legs/feet on in overhangs. I seem to be able to compress much more with my feet than I could in Autumn. 

[sdm]

external rotation of the hip - pigeon pose is a good stretch to increase passive external hip rotation, and you should be able to get 90 degrees of external rotation, but this will not necessarily allow you to use that range in your climbing. For example, raise your right leg in front of you to a 90 degree angle, allowing a 90 degree angle to form at the knee. Now try to rotate your femur so your foot comes up to your left. It's probably a long way off 90 degrees, and this is your mobility. Static holds and slow repetitions will help you improve this and I find this mobility useful for placing high/accurate heels while under tension.

Lizard pose with just the outside of the front foot grounded and the knee out to the side is about as specific as you can get for the movements and strains that side on heels and heel toes put on your hips, knees and ankles.

Make sure to keep the ankle flexed, don't let it cave in like many yoga teachers teach.

[cheque]

My ankles are very stiff, one is fixed in position after an accident.

This has reminded me to thank you for the recommendation of the adjustable insoles Scouse. Absolute game changer for me. 

[tomtom]

I tend to find if I use the side of my heel - like JB that means my knee goes out.

(as an example - using the heel toe on Kudos for the moves up to the rh on flake)

When I've done this in anger - its tweaked/popped something in my knee - so I avoid it at nearly all costs nowadays - and generally plonk my heel on

I had exactly this happen to me in Sardinia last year. A friend who is a sport physio had a look, snorted and told me it's a muscular stability thing and climbers are generally crap with this. Sure enough, I got a load of leg conditioning work done this winter and now hooks feel massively better, alongside flexibility and especially keeping legs/feet on in overhangs. I seem to be able to compress much more with my feet than I could in Autumn.

I remember you've posted on this before! I've legs described as "knots on cotton" (by my grandma) and a couple of Australian friends call me "Tommy toothpicks" because of my scrawny pins... I really should do something for my knees for this (on the long list of weaknesses!).

(For Kudos I just use my toe instead..)

[Wood FT]

Thanks everyone. Lots of hip flexibility work to think about. It has been a major weakness and this is evidently just another part of this. I need to stop avoiding it and get cracking.

The knee in/up/out phrasing explains it best.

[sheavi]

Do some mobility work with weights too. Deep goblet squats, heels down and butt as low as possible, holding a kettlebell for eg. Google it.

Thanks everyone. Lots of hip flexibility work to think about. It has been a major weakness and this is evidently just another part of this. I need to stop avoiding it and get cracking.

The knee in/up/out phrasing explains it best.

[Steve R]

Anyone know of some assessments and/or benchmarks for hip mobility and flexibility specifically for climbing which would highlight where you're most lacking?  Or able to provide some (maybe Liamhutch?).  I'm confident there must be a Pareto's Law type approach to flexibility and mobility for climbing but there's so much bollocks out there for all types of training these days and flexibility stuff seems particularly bollock heavy.  Personally I feel like I'm  average to ok flexibility/mobility in some areas (eg. solid at L sits, not bad V sits, not bad at pulling with high feet on a board or high rockovers on slabs)  and terrible in certain types of others (splits type corners, foot to hand matching when hand is pressing/mantling, certain types of heels, shocking at pigeon pose, absolutely nowhere on pancake).  Would be nice to know what to target*...
*for climbing

[User deactivated.]

Anyone know of some assessments and/or benchmarks for hip mobility and flexibility specifically for climbing which would highlight where you're most lacking?  Or able to provide some (maybe Liamhutch?).  I'm confident there must be a Pareto's Law type approach to flexibility and mobility for climbing but there's so much bollocks out there for all types of training these days and flexibility stuff seems particularly bollock heavy.  Personally I feel like I'm  average to ok flexibility/mobility in some areas (eg. solid at L sits, not bad V sits, not bad at pulling with high feet on a board or high rockovers on slabs)  and terrible in certain types of others (splits type corners, foot to hand matching when hand is pressing/mantling, certain types of heels, shocking at pigeon pose, absolutely nowhere on pancake).  Would be nice to know what to target*...
*for climbing

I doubt anyone has the data for benchmarking other than maybe lattice. Suspect you're right with Pareto's law / diminishing returns. I'm no climbing expert but looking at your description, and taking technique out of it:

good L-sits but bad at foot to hand and pancake indicates strong abdominals but relatively poor hip flexor mobility. The video above with the pike compression stuff could help there. I think it's self-evident that if you have good pike compression, getting your feet higher will be easier. Good shoulder protraction gains valuable inches when palming-off on foot to hand moves too.

Good at high feet on a board and rock overs indicates good enough leg strength including the posterior chain.

Struggling with certain types of heel hooks and being terrible at pigeon pose could potentially be related, so perhaps worth working on. Even if progressing with pigeon pose doesn't help with climbing, your body will feel 5 years younger. It's one of the most hideous feeling stretches when you're crap at it but becomes one of the best feeling when you start loosening up.

As for bridging corners I think that's all just technique init.

[tomtom]

In the last qualifiers for the Olympics - one of the commentators was making the point that all the Russian athletes were very flexible - and implying (if not actually saying) it was a big part of their training.

If it’s being trained for the Olympics - it’s being measured in some way I’ll bet. I’ve no links, but it might be an Avenue to go down searching?

[moose]

If it’s being trained for the Olympics - it’s being measured in some way I’ll bet. I’ve no links, but it might be an Avenue to go down searching?

By coincidence, I was listening to a podcast today presented by a former NFL edge-rusher (a role where you need explosiveness and "bend" to get around the offensive line and tackle the quarterback before he can throw).  He mentioned playing several games through a high ankle sprain with injections of toredol, to try to earn his next contract.  He got the contract but said he lost 2 cm of ankle flexibility and was never the same player afterwards.  Unfortunately he didn't specify how the 2 cm was measured.

[sheavi]

If you are pigeon toed then effectively you have 'naturally' internally rotated femurs and tibias.  Heel hooking and high rock overs require the opposite to some extent - good hip flexion, external rotation and abduction of the hip (and to some extent good external tibial torsion). Any mobility/flexibility exercise that tries to address this will feel difficult for you, so please proceed gently. There are various methods to improve mobility/flexibility but caution is required especially around the knee.  I've seen quite a few people will meniscus and ligament injuries (knee) while trying to improve hip mobility.  If you're serious about making some changes it's probably worth seeing a professional to advise on suitable methods. 

[Wood FT]

If you are pigeon toed then effectively you have 'naturally' internally rotated femurs and tibias.  Heel hooking and high rock overs require the opposite to some extent - good hip flexion, external rotation and abduction of the hip (and to some extent good external tibial torsion). Any mobility/flexibility exercise that tries to address this will feel difficult for you, so please proceed gently. There are various methods to improve mobility/flexibility but caution is required especially around the knee.  I've seen quite a few people will meniscus and ligament injuries (knee) while trying to improve hip mobility.  If you're serious about making some changes it's probably worth seeing a professional to advise on suitable methods.

 

[Steve R]

Even if progressing with pigeon pose doesn't help with climbing, your body will feel 5 years younger.

Sold!  Thanks a lot for the reply, will focus in on hip flexor mobility a bit more and see how it goes.  Generally on the feeling younger from stretching thing - had no idea about this previously so has been a very welcome revelation since been stretching differently and more consistently this year.

[sheavi]

Anecdotally I've always felt better for stretching. I find it rejuvenating.  I know the modern trend (research?) has questioned the validity but I often think the wrong questions are being asked, e.g. injury prevention. Anyway this little study helps confirm my biases . If anyone's interested I can send them the full article.

J Phys Act Health
. 2020 Dec 18;1-8.  doi: 10.1123/jpah.2020-0365.  Online ahead of print.
Stretching is Superior to Brisk Walking for Reducing Blood Pressure in People With High-Normal Blood Pressure or Stage I Hypertension

Jongbum Ko, Dalton Deprez, Keely Shaw, Jane Alcorn, Thomas Hadjistavropoulos, Corey Tomczak, Heather Foulds, Philip D Chilibeck
PMID: 33338988  DOI: 10.1123/jpah.2020-0365
Abstract

Background: Aerobic exercise is recommended for reducing blood pressure; however, recent studies indicate that stretching may also be effective. The authors compared 8 weeks of stretching versus walking exercise in men and women with high-normal blood pressure or stage 1 hypertension (ie, 130/85-159/99 mm Hg).

Methods: Forty men and women (61.6 y) were randomized to a stretching or brisk walking exercise program (30 min/d, 5 d/wk for 8 wk). Blood pressure was assessed during sitting and supine positions and for 24 hours using a portable monitor before and after the training programs.

Results: The stretching program elicited greater reductions than the walking program (P < .05) for sitting systolic (146 [9] to 140 [12] vs 139 [9] to 142 [12] mm Hg), supine diastolic (85 [7] to 78 [8] vs 81 [7] to 82 [7] mm Hg), and nighttime diastolic (67 [8] to 65 [10] vs 68 [8] to 73 [12] mm Hg) blood pressures. The stretching program elicited greater reductions than the walking program (P < .05) for mean arterial pressure assessed in sitting (108 [7] to 103 [6] vs 105 [6] vs 105 [8] mm Hg), supine (102 [9] to 96 [9] vs 99 [6] to 99 [7] mm Hg), and at night (86 [9] to 83 [10] vs 88 [9] to 93 [12] mm Hg).

Conclusions: An 8-week stretching program was superior to brisk walking for reducing blood pressure in individuals with high-normal blood pressure or stage 1 hypertension.

Even if progressing with pigeon pose doesn't help with climbing, your body will feel 5 years younger.

Sold!  Thanks a lot for the reply, will focus in on hip flexor mobility a bit more and see how it goes.  Generally on the feeling younger from stretching thing - had no idea about this previously so has been a very welcome revelation since been stretching differently and more consistently this year.

[SA Chris]

Struggling with certain types of heel hooks and being terrible at pigeon pose could potentially be related, so perhaps worth working on. Even if progressing with pigeon pose doesn't help with climbing, your body will feel 5 years younger. It's one of the most hideous feeling stretches when you're crap at it but becomes one of the best feeling when you start loosening up.

Used to be the highlight of my yoga class.

Reclining Hero progression is really good for opening front of hips too, but use blocks if you have and knee dodgyness.

[cheque]

he lost 2 cm of ankle flexibility and was never the same player afterwards.  Unfortunately he didn't specify how the 2 cm was measured.

Possibly with this test?

I’ve measurably improved mine by stretching my calves every day since becoming aware of that test the other week.

[JJP]

Anyone know of some assessments and/or benchmarks for hip mobility and flexibility specifically for climbing which would highlight where you're most lacking?  Or able to provide some (maybe Liamhutch?).  I'm confident there must be a Pareto's Law type approach to flexibility and mobility for climbing but there's so much bollocks out there for all types of training these days and flexibility stuff seems particularly bollock heavy.  Personally I feel like I'm  average to ok flexibility/mobility in some areas (eg. solid at L sits, not bad V sits, not bad at pulling with high feet on a board or high rockovers on slabs)  and terrible in certain types of others (splits type corners, foot to hand matching when hand is pressing/mantling, certain types of heels, shocking at pigeon pose, absolutely nowhere on pancake).  Would be nice to know what to target*...
*for climbing

Being tall with pretty average hip flexibility it is something I have been looking at this during lockdown. 

You sound like you have pretty good flexibility and they may be a bit basic but there are a couple of videos on the topic by the "climbing doctor" with American climber Jon Cardwell.  He does a couple of pretty simple appearing assessments at the start.  Maybe worth a watch?