[Loos3-tools]

Passing thought that this section of the forum is called diet, training and injuries. Perhaps given what we seem to have all acknowledged that training should definitely come before diet in the "toolkit", is this worth a rename?

One of those things which some might roll their eyes at, but imagine how it would look from the perspective of someone who is on a slippery slope.

One of those passing thoughts that should be left to pass. 😆

[spidermonkey09]

And yet here we are, with Fiend having suggested an improvement. It is obviously only very minor but can't see the downside.

"Training, nutrition, and injuries"

Training should come first as it's the main focus. I think nutrition is a more suitable term as it covers what really matters - being optimally nutrient-supplied for climbing prowess (not the same as diet which can be construed as dieting!).

[Duma]

INJURIES, training, and nutrition

would be most appropriate weighting I'd say

[moose]

INJURIES, training, and nutrition

would be most appropriate weighting I'd say

A YMMV issue really - for me, right now, training and nutrition are perennial issues, so I'd put them first.  My injury history is generally sporadic lumps 'n' bumps, or mild overuse issues that have been reasonably well managed with judicious rest.

Mind you, give it a few years and I reckon injury advice will be the priority.  For me, the early-to-mid-to-late-40s transition is increasingly feeling like a sailing ship, bourne slowly leeward onto a rocky shore called "pain".

[mrjonathanr]

This article about psychiatrists anticipating a significant rise in eating disorders as a result of the oresssures and isolation caused by the pandemic seems relevant to put here:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/2021/feb/11/doctors-warn-of-tsunami-of-pandemic-eating-disorders

[Loos3-tools]

It’s funny that the Guardians pro lockdown brainwashing of the middle classes / liberal elite and their Twitter hit squad including the good old George bully boy Monibot choose to raise concerns about exactly the mental health crisis that they are serving to generate. There are some true independent voices on these matters including Alison Pollock who speaks to reason and supports pro-social public health policies. Lockdown has led to a wide ranging effect on mental health mostly in which previously well but vulnerable people are tipped over into being unwell while there is an alleviation of shame and guilt for those already ‘locked down’ by their mental health prior to the pandemic

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s funny that the Guardians pro lockdown brainwashing of the middle classes / liberal elite and their Twitter hit squad including the good old George bully boy Monibot choose to raise concerns about exactly the mental health crisis that they are serving to generate. There are some true independent voices on these matters including Alison Pollock who speaks to reason and supports pro-social public health policies. Lockdown has led to a wide ranging effect on mental health mostly in which previously well but vulnerable people are tipped over into being unwell while there is an alleviation of shame and guilt for those already ‘locked down’ by their mental health prior to the pandemic

Wow.
Somebody’s not coping well with all this and is lashing out in a bit of a toddler tantrum.

Most of us are feeling the effects of isolation and curtailment of our social interactions. I’m pretty sure most of us are happy to share time and support, through the avenues open to us, on line, over the phone, socially distanced exercise etc. It’s not even  entirely altruistic, since most will also derive mutual benefit from a supporting role, too.

But, your hostility is only deepening your isolation.
Grasping at straws and fashioning them into an approximation of a man, to try and support your flimsy arguments.
You need to step out from behind these silly faux personas, it’s not helping you. Running around poking your finger into Wasp nests, might feel rebellious and  defiant, but it’s actually a self destructive path. It achieves little beyond pain for the poker and mild irritation, tinged with pity, for the audience.

[abarro81]

I don't think anyone disagrees that lockdown is shit for lots of things and lots of people... But you need to have a better plan/proposal or it's meaningless...

[Loos3-tools]

I don't think anyone disagrees that lockdown is shit for lots of things and lots of people... But you need to have a better plan/proposal or it's meaningless...

Probs one for the covid thread but relevant here too. There’s no good answers I agree with Allyson Pollock on lots of points. https://allysonpollock.com/?page_id=2903

[Oldmanmatt]

It’s funny that the Guardians pro lockdown brainwashing of the middle classes / liberal elite and their Twitter hit squad including the good old George bully boy Monibot choose to raise concerns about exactly the mental health crisis that they are serving to generate. There are some true independent voices on these matters including Alison Pollock who speaks to reason and supports pro-social public health policies. Lockdown has led to a wide ranging effect on mental health mostly in which previously well but vulnerable people are tipped over into being unwell while there is an alleviation of shame and guilt for those already ‘locked down’ by their mental health prior to the pandemic

Wow.
Somebody’s not coping well with all this and is lashing out in a bit of a toddler tantrum.

Most of us are feeling the effects of isolation and curtailment of our social interactions. I’m pretty sure most of us are happy to share time and support, through the avenues open to us, on line, over the phone, socially distanced exercise etc. It’s not even  entirely altruistic, since most will also derive mutual benefit from a supporting role, too.

But, your hostility is only deepening your isolation.
Grasping at straws and fashioning them into an approximation of a man, to try and support your flimsy arguments.
You need to step out from behind these silly faux personas, it’s not helping you. Running around poking your finger into Wasp nests, might feel rebellious and  defiant, but it’s actually a self destructive path. It achieves little beyond pain for the poker and mild irritation, tinged with pity, for the audience.

Plattsy, mate, you are so far off the mark.
But fine, belittle my offer.
I’ve been trying with Dan for a long time.
Encouraging him down his rabbit hole is simply wrong of you.

[Plattsy]

I'm not encouraging anyone down or up any rabbit hole. So attributing something to me that I'm not doing isn't fair.
If I've misunderstood your post and you aren't likening the post you've responded to to a toddler's tantrum which to me would seem to be belittling then I apologise.

 

[Oldmanmatt]

I don't think anyone disagrees that lockdown is shit for lots of things and lots of people... But you need to have a better plan/proposal or it's meaningless...

Probs one for the covid thread but relevant here too. There’s no good answers I agree with Allyson Pollock on lots of points. https://allysonpollock.com/?page_id=2903

It is better in the other thread.

The problem with her approach, is the idea that education is the answer.
That, if only enough people understood the risks and mitigation routes, we could manage the situation through communication action and common sense.
It probably is for many, but most of them, those who would be swayed by education and try to act in a sensible fashion, already are and have taken the “education” available to heart already.
There is, unfortunately, a hefty chunk of society, quite able to ignore reality and choose comfortable lies over uncomfortable facts. This is demonstrated widely around the world in various political, religious and health related situations, daily, up to and including one type of religious group attempting to wipe out entire populations for being the “wrong type” of the same religious group.

I’d love to be able to escape lockdown and draconian, blanket (and therefore, ill fitting) measures, not to mention loathing to support this government, but I don’t see a workable alternative.

Can you remember, myself and my family are being hit rather hard by the shutdown? If we don’t lose the business, we will be very lucky and our personal debt is rising rapidly to try and stave it off (currently we owe £25k that we didn’t a year ago, having finally got the business debt free and in profit, last January). Add to that four teenagers going stir crazy, one who was supposed to be sitting GCSE’s in a couple months and Polly having to continue to work as a lettings agent (and having to visit some pretty unsanitary properties, vulnerable people of all descriptions etc etc. Whilst her bosses and long time friends (who are a couple) manage Alan’s impending death (cancer), whilst trying not to infect him and give him his last few weeks with his wife and kids and ... so on and so forth).
So, yeah, I get the anger and the frustration, but doing nothing or hoping that “people” will be sensible, would be way worse.

[Oldmanmatt]

I'm not encouraging anyone down or up any rabbit hole. So attributing something to me that I'm not doing isn't fair.
If I've misunderstood your post and you aren't likening the post you've responded to to a toddler's tantrum which to me would seem to be belittling then I apologise.

 

No, you are correct, I am, because it is.
I think you should take it (the post) within the context of his other posts and not just under the current persona.

(From that point of view, it fits well in this thread, at least within the broader mental health aspects of such a thread. Not least because, if I’ve understood anything from the discussion here, it’s that EDs are complex and require sensitivity, awareness and a more considered approach to language etc in mine or my staff’s coaching practices, but beyond that, the issue requires such a detailed knowledge of an individuals life and history, it is not within our abilities to “do” much more).

I get that I am assuming that Mr Loo3e is Dan, so might be myself way off, but the previous few months and multiple “Dans” up to this point, paint a difficult picture to view.

*For reference, the Guardian (and Monbiot in particular) get up my nose too, but the first few lines of the post I responded to, was far more “belittling” of “people’s” opinions or arguments, than my response.

[IanP]

. You could identify some big red flags though.

What would red flags be for those losing control?

Similar to others here I have no qualifications to provide any sort of definitive answer to this question but can give a few thoughts.

One place to get a view is something like the self-referral form from SYEDA (South Yorkshire Eating Disorder Association).  Note they don't deal with more severe eating disorders, for example people who 'Are at a severely low weight (BMI 17.5 or below)'.  Also worth noting that their waiting list is currently closed to large parts of south Yorkshire due to overwhelming demand.!

https://www.syeda.org.uk/self-referral-form

A few things that might pick out as particularly relevant to sports people:

- Are you purging more than 5 times per week? (making yourself sick, exercising in excess of an hour/using laxatives)
- Do you worry that you have lost control over your eating?
- Do you ever use exercise as a way of coping with difficult thoughts and feelings?
- Do you believe yourself to be overweight when others say you are underweight?
- Would you say that food dominates your life?
 
From my experience (n=2), particular things visible externally were obsessive behaviour around controlling (as well as simply reducing) food together with exercise habits including guilt around not exercising.  With some overreaching on my part I could imagine that in climbers changes towards increasing volume of exercise without obvious objectives/significantly increased aerobic exercise could be a bit of flag since this wouldn't necessarily form part of a well thought through climbing specific training plan.

Another very specific thing in my personal experiences (both outdoor athletes) was really feeling the cold, maybe related to underfueling?  Something that has improved significantly when recovering.

I think people with disordered eating / EDs often have anxiety and guilt as well so maybe changes in behaviour around how/when they eat could be something to aware of e.g. always wanting to prepare own food, avoiding eating meals at the same time as other people, avoiding social situations involving food.

Just to be clear again, I have no real expertise so above is just some of  my thoughts based on personal experience and  attempts at self-education.  Also aware that it's clear that a number of these sort of behaviours could be explained by people managing the diet/training in a controlled fashion - none of this has easy / obvious answers.

[andy_e]

I hadn't thought about guilt over not exercising as being part of it all. I wonder if that's one of the more common traits of EDs that doesn't get discussed as much? I certainly feel guilty if I don't feel I've done enough exercise in a given period of time.

[Oldmanmatt]

I hadn't thought about guilt over not exercising as being part of it all. I wonder if that's one of the more common traits of EDs that doesn't get discussed as much? I certainly feel guilty if I don't feel I've done enough exercise in a given period of time.

Honestly, I felt I ticked many of Ian’s red flags, possibly all. However, I don’t have an ED.
Even though I will feel guilty and restless, I will rest today, despite planning a test/benchmark run this afternoon. Because I started getting leg craps in my sleep, last night, because I’ve over trained and not rested sufficiently. I even allowed myself a McDonalds Breakfast this morning.
I will and do feel “guilty” of not being able to push through.
This is just me, I have always been this way, it is only age that has taught me when  to stop, part of me knowing the rest will advance me more than pushing through would. But it’s an internal conflict and require the subversion of my inner obsession to trick it into pacifying itself and juggling mental processes such that I don’t disappear up my own paradoxical arse.
Having that sort of personality and having experienced the odd life changing trauma, I can see how crossing the Rubicon into some sort of obsessive, compulsive, mental illness, is incredibly, scarily,  easy.
There but for the merest of chances, go I.

[webbo]

One can obsessions about exercise without having an eating disorder. I would suggest on that list Ian posted it would about how many of those red flags you tick and also which ones. If I was doing an initial mental health assessment on someone and they said they worried about if they had not exercised and they regularly exercised for more than an hour. I would explore it further but it wouldn’t ring alarm bells in the same way if someone reported taking laxatives when not needed and eating tissue paper in order not to feel hungry.

[abarro81]

From my experience (n=2), particular things visible externally were obsessive behaviour around controlling (as well as simply reducing) food together with exercise habits including guilt around not exercising.  With some overreaching on my part I could imagine that in climbers changes towards increasing volume of exercise without obvious objectives/significantly increased aerobic exercise could be a bit of flag since this wouldn't necessarily form part of a well thought through climbing specific training plan.

I think people with disordered eating / EDs often have anxiety and guilt as well so maybe changes in behaviour around how/when they eat could be something to aware of e.g. always wanting to prepare own food, avoiding eating meals at the same time as other people, avoiding social situations involving food.

That all makes sense, thanks. I struggle more with the list as I train for >1hr all the time, I feel like I've lost control of my eating every time I eat goat's cheese or lindor  , and exercising to cope with difficult thoughts seems pretty standard.

[spidermonkey09]

I struggle more with the list as I train for >1hr all the time,

Likewise; perhaps this just emphasises how weird we are compared to the general population though. Among my friends who don't climb, I don't think many of them would routinely exercise for longer than an hour, so if they started doing it out of the blue it might be a warning sign.

[Loos3-tools]

From my experience (n=2), particular things visible externally were obsessive behaviour around controlling (as well as simply reducing) food together with exercise habits including guilt around not exercising.  With some overreaching on my part I could imagine that in climbers changes towards increasing volume of exercise without obvious objectives/significantly increased aerobic exercise could be a bit of flag since this wouldn't necessarily form part of a well thought through climbing specific training plan.

I think people with disordered eating / EDs often have anxiety and guilt as well so maybe changes in behaviour around how/when they eat could be something to aware of e.g. always wanting to prepare own food, avoiding eating meals at the same time as other people, avoiding social situations involving food.

That all makes sense, thanks. I struggle more with the list as I train for >1hr all the time, I feel like I've lost control of my eating every time I eat goat's cheese or lindor  , and exercising to cope with difficult thoughts seems pretty standard.

You’ve had it Barrows, somebody call the thought police!

[mrjonathanr]

Ian's points are interesting but do highlight the difficulty of interpreting behaviour.

I would be astonished if there is anyone on here who does not regularly exercise for over an hour for example. Shark even has an annual project dedicated to the half hour version every day! Any competitive athlete etc

To my- unqualified- mind, it's the purpose of the exercise that needs discerning. Is it weight control? Control seems to me a key issue within an eating disorder. Does someone exhibit distress if they can't maintain their regular control over weight through exercise sessions or food?

[shark]

I struggle more with the list as I train for >1hr all the time,

Likewise; perhaps this just emphasises how weird we are compared to the general population though. Among my friends who don't climb, I don't think many of them would routinely exercise for longer than an hour, so if they started doing it out of the blue it might be a warning sign.

Most of my 1 hour+ sessions are taken up playing online scrabble whilst normal people (muggles) would be continuously at it on the treadmill

[spidermonkey09]

Most of my 1 hour+ sessions are taken up playing online scrabble whilst normal people (muggles) would be continuously at it on the treadmill

Our (superior and magical!) exercise is less continuous, true. Among the people I know who go running I think it would be unusual for their 'normal' run to be longer than an hour for example.

Edit; think this from mrjr is the key.

To my- unqualified- mind, it's the purpose of the exercise that needs discerning. Is it weight control?

[abarro81]

You guys just need to do more aero cap

[spidermonkey09]

You guys just need to do more aero cap

Aerocap on a fingerboard, even I haven't sunk to those depths yet...