[Johnny Brown]

Also from that guidebook: Sean Myles- FA of Rodney Mullen.

What grade do they give it?

[Fiend]

E9 7a. El Mocho repeat iirc??

[cheque]

Yep, “Originally climbed with a peg pre-placed, then subsequently led placing gear on lead by both Miles (sic?) and Bransby”.

It describes it as having only had one repeat 20 years on which, given the book came out in 2014 and the FA date is March 1991 suggests that the Ilkley script was ready quite a long way in advance! Coming up to 30 years without a third ascensionist now?

[El Mocho]

Also from that guidebook: Sean Myles- FA of Rodney Mullen.

What grade do they give it?

Seem to remember it was bog standard Myles E7. I can't really see E9 for it, maybe if you didn't bother with the hand placed peg but I don't think what it's graded for.

If I remember correctly (I might have even chatted to Sean about it really briefly) Sean first lead it with the peg pre placed (it's hand placed in a little pocket). He got some stick for this. He then led it again - climbed up, placed the peg, tried to carry on but fell off, lowered down, pulled the ropes then re led with the peg in. It got a weird write up in an earlier guide where they implied it hadn't had a proper ascent (this might have been before he led it the second time). When I did it I climbed up, placed the peg and then downclimbed to the ground, had a rest and then led it after (I don't think I had a go in between and fell off but I might have done).

I guess, ethically, my ascent counts as legit and you could argue both of Seans didn't quite match the best practice (although is a hand placed peg on grit ever going to be best practice). Personally I can't see much difference between them, and in fact it will have been physically harder the way Sean first did it as he actually clipped the pre placed peg on the lead go that he did the route.

Sorry this is a bit OT but can sometimes be good to get the facts (or a semblance of them) out there. Just to reiterate I had no problem with how Sean first climbed it - he was honest about what he had done, and I didn't set out to make the first 'proper' ascent of it or anything.

[mark20]

Sam and Ed Hamer both done Meshuga

[Nike Air]

Has Will Atkinson done E9 before he moved to Oz? Didnt he do that hard thing at Widdop?

Reservoir Dogs? E8 I think. Jordan might be able to confirm.

Slots well in at E8.

New statesman, funny one. Probably E8?

[T_B]

Yep, “Originally climbed with a peg pre-placed, then subsequently led placing gear on lead by both Miles (sic?) and Bransby”.

It describes it as having only had one repeat 20 years on which, given the book came out in 2014 and the FA date is March 1991 suggests that the Ilkley script was ready quite a long way in advance! Coming up to 30 years without a third ascensionist now?

I tried it on a rope in September ‘99 with Nic Sellers and Richie Patterson. I can’t remember if Nic did it or went back and led it but IIRC we had the right sized peg (a lost arrow) and it slotted in remarkably well. Weird that it’s given E9 in the guidebook as it was E7 7a.

[Will Hunt]

I can get this changed in the select guide. Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)? And E8 for New Statesman? I think I've seen it talked about as E8 more than E9 nowadays.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.

I should add, I was belaying Sean on Rodney Mullen.
Had to show him how to do it of course (R heel hook on aréte for RH slap again to good hold..)

The only debate was really over whether it was 8a sport.

I also don't understand how it could be considered that Sean's ascent wasn't in any way legit - other than for it being practiced etc first, and a re-climb.

The peg (yes, Lost Arrow) was covered in tape to protect the rock, and placed on lead. It's effectively a camming device. The only problem was the bad rope burn Sean was getting on his leg when he fell off.

Should go back to do it!

[Will Hunt]

That'll do me. Thanks.

[T_B]

Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.

Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.

[DAVETHOMAS90]

Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.

Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.

Sorry TB, edited my earlier post.
Yes, keen to go back! Great venue for not so cold conditions, so should still be in when the lockdown finishes .. hope.. fully..!

[El Mocho]

Will, it's not 7a. If that helps.

Have you done it/been on it Dave? It’s probably 6c in the same way that Messiah is 6c.

Messiah is quite a good comparison. Both a tiny bit bold to get to gear and then a harder top. I would say Rodney is a bit more involved to get to the peg and the crux sequence is a little longer, maybe a grade harder (which fits with the original E6 grade for Messiah vs the original E7 for Rodney). It could be argued it's E8 for Rodney? It would be a hard ground up/flash - I couldn't of done it in that style at the time and I did do Messiah gu (2nd go?) a year later.

I also don't understand how it could be considered that Sean's ascent wasn't in any way legit - other than for it being practiced etc first, and a re-climb.

It seemed pretty harsh at the time. I think the argument was it had pre-placed gear the first time and the second time was a yo-yo (although like I said I think the second time was after the guide had come out where the 'doubts'* were raised about the style of the original ascent, guess this was at least partly why Sean went back and re led it?)

I don't know why this route/ascent got called out so much, maybe because Sean was a peak raider  - if the same strict ethics were applied to other routes in Yorkshire (or elsewhere) we'd have to re write massive sections of history.

*I can't even remember what it said in the guide about it, I'm sure there was something, maybe in the history section at the back

[SA Chris]

History section - "Originally graded 8a but with pre-placed protection, and a hanging rope, just in case! Still not led in "pure" style"

And the text in the main guide says "it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".

Well done El Mocho, E10 leader

[Fiend]

Post-lockdown Rodney Mullen send-train ahoy!!

[El Mocho]

History section - "Originally graded 8a but with pre-placed protection, and a hanging rope, just in case! Still not led in "pure" style"

And the text in the main guide says "it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".

Well done El Mocho, E10 leader

Cool, E10 it is.

[grimer]

Rodney Mullen IIRC was on an OTE front cover? Or maybe not.

Sean Myles led it with some ethical issue, obvs the pre-placed peg. He got some stick and, as i recall, went back and reled in a purer style.

Dave Mus (snr) was, I believe, one of the critics, and was then the YMC guidebook editor. I also think there was some Peak / Yorkshire rivalry involved.

SM wrote a letter to the mags (ah, nostalgia) and I remember the last line being something like "I can't believe tyou left my route out of the guide Dave." as DM had left RM out of the recently published Yorkshire Grit guide.

So ethical disputes, area rivalries, printed guides, letters to the mags... different times.

[nai]

Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?

Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?

[Will Hunt]

I'm surprised that was seen as so controversial. Sounds like small beer compared to all the frigs that were employed to get up Yorkshire limestone routes, none of which are questioned.

[mrjonathanr]

Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?

Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?

IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.

[Will Hunt]

Is it E7 7a for Rodney or 6c (though I'm sceptical as to whether it really matters about the English tech at this level)?

Good opportunity to lead a change from uk tech to sport grades for harder trad toutes?

IIRC Sean gave it straight 8a and got sufficient stick that he wrote an article to explain his reasoning. Basically, he said it's a redpoint.

This is something I'd like to see happen but it will take time and a way to gather up the knowledge (the UKC database could make a start). The CC have done it with their Pembroke guide, giving all routes of E5 and above an accompanying sport grade. You could argue that for some gritstone routes (Slip n' Slide springs to mind) you'd be better off trying to give a bouldering grade, while others (Milky Way) would be better off with a sport grade. The CC have a huge advantage in doing it for Pembroke in that the hard routes there get more traffic than anywhere else. Bar a few notable exceptions, most routes in Yorkshire of, say, E5 and above see only a few disparate repeats. I imagine many are unrepeated.

[Johnny Brown]

"it still awaits a leader who can place the gear 'mid-dyno' and keep going. The true grade could be close to E10".

Well done El Mocho, E10 leader

Cool, E10 it is.

Back around.

[remus]

I've been through the last few pages and added in anyone that was missing, plus a few bonus ascents that seemed interesting. Hopefully haven't done anything too controversial 

Men https://climbing-history.org/list/6
Women https://climbing-history.org/list/7

Replies to a few points:

Men v women grade split: personally im mainly interested in recording significant stuff done by men and women. I think using the same criteria for men and women risks forgetting about lots of interesting ascents by women, and the current criteria seem to have produced a fairly manageable list, so I think I'll keep it as is for the moment.

[Pre placed gear on The Big Issue]
Personally, i'd scratch them unless all other ascents on the list are justified with exactly how they were climbed. Not sure why it became ok to treat this route differently from any other well protected sport style trad route. Without placing gear it's just an 8a/+ clip up.

Given their ascents are in a minority it's easier to just make a note about how they climbed it. Everyone knows it is poor style compared to placing the kit on lead and I want to avoid have to decide what counts as a valid ascent if it can be avoided.

Tim Emmett has done 'The Path' 5.14R in Canada, unsure what the trad grade would ?E9

https://gripped.com/news/tim-emmett-and-read-macadam-send-the-path-5-14r-in-rockies/

I've plucked E9 out of the air for this. Seems about right for safe-ish 8b+?

I've bumped transcendence up to E9. Malc is no soft touch and Dan V seems convinced it has some hard moves on it.

[remus]

Anyone fancy a punt on a grade for tribe?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/10/second_ascent_of_tribe_-_worlds_hardest_trad_route_-_by_james_pearson-72593

[petejh]

Anyone fancy a punt on a grade for tribe?

https://www.ukclimbing.com/news/2020/10/second_ascent_of_tribe_-_worlds_hardest_trad_route_-_by_james_pearson-72593

If you're suggesting safe-ish 8b+ is E9 then is it that hard to extrapolate?
safe-ish 8c-8c+ E10
safe-ish 9a-9a+ E11
safe-ish Culm steep slab E12, obvs